Intelligent Machines 861 transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte [00:00:00]:
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martineau, our guest this hour. The wonderful Guy Kawasaki, Apple's original evangelist, and now he's evangelizing Signal Messenger. He's got lots to say about Apple, Signal, politics, and more. Guy Kawasaki next on Intelligent Machines. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Twit.

Leo Laporte [00:00:31]:
This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, episode 861, recorded Wednesday, March 11th, 2026. We have computer at home. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we cover the latest in AI, robotics, and all the smart doodads and doohickeys all around you, and where we very often have a very interesting guest for our interviews. I'm gonna introduce our guest in a minute, but let me say first, hello. To Paris Martineau, who is a killer at the Scrabble game. Thanks a lot. 4 letters, 77 points.

Paris Martineau [00:01:08]:
You know, I saw that one. I played a very well-placed hoax right before we got on.

Leo Laporte [00:01:15]:
You did it on purpose to make me— to rattle me.

Paris Martineau [00:01:18]:
I did. I had to knock Leo off his game before we started recording. And I think I've done that successfully.

Leo Laporte [00:01:24]:
Yes, you have. And Jeff Jarvis is also here. Oh, by the way, Paris works for Consumer Reports, where she's an investigative reporter. Jeff Jarvis, of course, the author of The Gutenberg Parenthesis magazine and the newest Hot Type, which is available for pre-order right now, all about the history of the linotype, which actually turns out to be very more interesting than you would think. Yeah, more interesting than one would think. Hello, Jeff.

Jeff Jarvis [00:01:49]:
Hello, boss.

Leo Laporte [00:01:51]:
How come you're not playing us in Scrabble? Don't you play Scrabble?

Jeff Jarvis [00:01:53]:
I hate games. I hate all games. I don't do crosswords.

Paris Martineau [00:01:57]:
Crazy statement.

Jeff Jarvis [00:01:58]:
I don't do Wordle. I hate people sharing their Wordles.

Paris Martineau [00:02:02]:
I hate people sharing their Wordle Wurdles is evil. I will—

Jeff Jarvis [00:02:06]:
Yes, it is.

Leo Laporte [00:02:07]:
Don't share your Wurdles. That's our—

Jeff Jarvis [00:02:10]:
It's like telling me you had a good BM. Just shush, keep it to yourself.

Leo Laporte [00:02:14]:
Oh no, it's not even close. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce our guest to him now, as I'm very embarrassed to say, is already here. Guy Kawasaki. I don't even tell you who Guy is. Hey, great to see you, Guy.

Guy Kawasaki [00:02:27]:
No, nice to see you too.

Leo Laporte [00:02:30]:
18 books. This is your 18th book.

Guy Kawasaki [00:02:35]:
You know, after I wrote my first one, I said, "That's my last book," and I've said that 18 times now, so yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:02:43]:
I know how that is. Was "Selling the Dream" your first one?

Guy Kawasaki [00:02:46]:
No, my very first one was called "The Macintosh Way." It was about— Oh, that's right. You know, how to do the right things the right way based on my Macintosh division experience.

Leo Laporte [00:02:57]:
Guy became famous as Apple's chief evangelist in the '90s, really helping the world appreciate the Macintosh. You must be— I mean, in 2 weeks, Apple's going to celebrate its 50th birthday.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:14]:
Amazing.

Leo Laporte [00:03:15]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:16]:
What years were you there? Were you there, Guy?

Guy Kawasaki [00:03:18]:
I was there from '83 to '87 and '95 to '97. And if you are a real Apple historian, you would see that whenever I leave Apple, it does extremely well.

Leo Laporte [00:03:34]:
You were there You were there in the darkest days of the mid-'90s. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:03:39]:
Now causation is not correlation.

Leo Laporte [00:03:42]:
Exactly.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:43]:
Were you there for the Mac and the LaserWriter and all that?

Guy Kawasaki [00:03:47]:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:03:49]:
That was the tense time, yeah?

Leo Laporte [00:03:52]:
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:03:53]:
Oh my God. That was, you know, this book coming out about Apple by David Pogue, you know, the 50th anniversary, I told him that at the end of college when we watched the introduction of Macintosh, It was like watching your first child be born. It was an amazing experience.

Leo Laporte [00:04:12]:
That's the one where Steve was in a bow tie and the Mac was in a bag. Yeah, right.

Guy Kawasaki [00:04:18]:
He made it talk.

Leo Laporte [00:04:19]:
He pulls it out, puts it on the table and says, hello, I am Macintosh. And the crowd went crazy.

Guy Kawasaki [00:04:30]:
Yeah, it's good to get out of the bag.

Leo Laporte [00:04:33]:
Yes. For that time, 1984, it was very advanced technology. I remember lining up at Macy's in March of that year with my Macy's credit card because it was $2,500. It was very expensive and charging that first Mac. And because I was a believer, I was a believer from the very beginning because I had been pressing my nose against the window of the Lisa, which was $10. $10,000. It made $25,000— no, $10,000, and it made $2,500 look cheap. So we thought, oh, Apple's bringing computing back down to earth, back to the masses.

Jeff Jarvis [00:05:13]:
So believe it or not, in my Linotype book, it ends with PostScript and desktop publishing, and that which replaced everything that came before, and the amazing collection of people the dots connected that made the LaserWriter possible with PostScript, with Linotype as well. And it's kind of, it's a fascinating story about the kind of a rescue of the whole thing by the right people at the right place at the right time.

Leo Laporte [00:05:40]:
Now I have to say, Guy has a track record that goes well beyond Apple. He was the first US employee of Canva and did something very smart. It says that you negotiated your salary in stock.

Guy Kawasaki [00:05:56]:
Yeah, I'm— I mean, I told him that I didn't want any money. I just wanted everything in stock, which, you know, for once in my freaking life, I made a good decision. I mean, you know, you're also talking to the guy who quit Apple twice and turned Steve Jobs down for a third job. So, you know, that, that roughly cost me $250 million. And then I was asked to interview to be the first CEO of Yahoo, and I said it was too far to drive.

Leo Laporte [00:06:27]:
You know, do you still surf every day?

Guy Kawasaki [00:06:32]:
Uh, I surf almost every day. I'm in Hawaii right now and we're in the middle of a little bit of a storm, but I surfed yesterday. I might surf today. I love to surf. It's— I started surfing, Leo, at 60 years old, which is 55 years too late, but I love surfing.

Leo Laporte [00:06:50]:
You're Hawaiian. What, you didn't surf in Hawaii when you were a kid?

Guy Kawasaki [00:06:55]:
Well, Leo, I don't know if you haven't noticed, but I'm Asian American. So Asian Americans, all we did was study for the SATs and high school.

Leo Laporte [00:07:05]:
Well, it worked out just fine.

Guy Kawasaki [00:07:06]:
Yeah, well, this was before you could just Photoshop yourself into the sailing team and get into the Ivy League. You actually had to take the SAT.

Leo Laporte [00:07:14]:
It worked for a living. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:07:16]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:07:16]:
Well, it's good you went to the Ivy League. You went to Stanford, right?

Guy Kawasaki [00:07:19]:
I did. And to this day, I do not know how the hell I got in. My only explanation, Leo, is is that I went to Stanford so long ago that at the time, Japanese Americans were considered an oppressed minority.

Leo Laporte [00:07:35]:
Wow.

Guy Kawasaki [00:07:36]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:07:36]:
Wow.

Jeff Jarvis [00:07:40]:
So I came home.

Guy Kawasaki [00:07:40]:
I was your age, or? Oh, that's another great story. So, you know, back then, if you were Asian American, your parents wanted you to be a doctor, lawyer, or dentist. So I started in pre-med. I went on this Stanford course where you went around rounds in the medical center. And on the first day, I fainted. So I said, that takes out medicine. And then I read that dentists have the highest form of, highest level of suicide. So that eliminated dentistry.

Guy Kawasaki [00:08:09]:
And so I tried law and I went to law school for 2 weeks and quit. So yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:08:15]:
Half the lawyers I've ever met are former lawyers. So I think you probably made the right—

Guy Kawasaki [00:08:20]:
Well, you know, I tell people that like most people think it takes 20 or 30 years to figure out they hate being a lawyer. I figured that out in 20 days.

Leo Laporte [00:08:31]:
So looking back on your life, I mean, you're not, you're far from the end of it. We're gonna talk about your brand new book in just a second, but it kind of feels not random, but there was a lot of serendipity, a lot of, did you feel like you had a path or that life just took you on a ride?

Guy Kawasaki [00:08:51]:
I wouldn't say it was random, but it certainly wasn't a plan. I mean, you know, I went to Stanford, I majored in psychology because that's the easiest major I could find. I went to law school, I dropped out, I went back, I got an MBA. While I was at the MBA, I was working for a jewelry manufacturer schlepping diamonds. And then I went to that, and from that I went to Apple. And you know, if you sat down, you wouldn't say, well, Guy, the path to technology is you go to law school and you drop out, you get an MBA, you count diamonds, and then you go to Apple. I mean, you know, I am living proof, Leo, that nepotism sometimes can work out. So yeah, I'm proud of that.

Guy Kawasaki [00:09:35]:
I'm proud of that. You ought to be. Basically, my life has been that I have an open mind and a growth mindset, and when things interest me, I pursue them, and some of them become passions.

Leo Laporte [00:09:48]:
Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So you do a podcast called Remarkable People, which is obviously a passion project.

Guy Kawasaki [00:09:55]:
Yes. It sure as hell ain't financial.

Leo Laporte [00:09:58]:
Yeah. Tell me about podcasting.

Guy Kawasaki [00:10:00]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:10:02]:
But it turned out you have an excellent co-host with you, and together you've written a brand new book, your 18th book, Everybody Has Something to Hide.

Guy Kawasaki [00:10:15]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [00:10:16]:
But the book is really about how and why to use Signal to protect your privacy, security, and well-being. How did it come about that you were writing this book?

Guy Kawasaki [00:10:26]:
Well, you know, to put it mildly, we are in interesting political times, and about a year and a half I read an article in Wired and also another one by the EFF about how security and privacy is so much more important in a dystopian world that we live in. And I read that, I said, yeah, you're absolutely right. Why would I give Meta all my information and Google all my information? And then, you know, then Tim Cook started going to the White House and donating money to the East Wing and, you know, going to the Melania movie unveiling and all that stuff. I said, I gotta have more privacy in my text messaging. I read about Signal. I use Signal. I love Signal, just the user interface and the functionality. And every year I go to South by Southwest and I interview somebody.

Guy Kawasaki [00:11:17]:
And so they asked me, who would you like to interview this year? And I said, I'd like to interview the CEO of Signal, Meredith Whitaker. I interviewed her. I was blown away by her remarkableness. And so I fell in love with Signal. And then I looked and said, there's no book written about Signal. So I thought it was more or less seriously, I mean completely seriously, I thought it was my moral duty to write a book called Signal to help people get more private and secure.

Leo Laporte [00:11:46]:
Who are you aiming this at? It isn't, it's about getting to use it, right? Kind of non, it's not particularly technical.

Guy Kawasaki [00:11:57]:
It is not particularly technical in the sense that if you're an encryption nerd, I'm not gonna talk about double ratcheting and I don't know, all the other stuff. But there's a lot of people who have something to hide, and I don't mean just because they're doing illegal bad stuff, but anyway, everybody has something to hide. And I think that, you know, a lot of them don't know what Signal is, so that's one purpose of the book. And then once you know what Signal is, I want you to maximize its privacy and security because, you know, if you do things wrong, it's— I don't want you to get the misimpression that you are already secure. You need to do a few simple things. And I would like people to not be deceiving themselves.

Leo Laporte [00:12:43]:
Yeah. I'm, you know, honestly, I want you, this book to be a huge bestseller because I would like to use Signal entirely. Yeah. But of course, Signal only works with other Signal users. And it's always the problem with all these messaging platforms. They're all silos now.

Paris Martineau [00:13:03]:
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:13:04]:
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:13:04]:
And I think that that is the biggest problem that Signal faces because you cannot use Signal unless the other people are on Signal. So much of the book is dedicated to how you evangelize Signal to other people now. And that is literally the biggest problem. Now, you know, it is worth it. And Leo, if I could go back in time, I would only use Signal too. I mean, it is so much better than everything else.

Leo Laporte [00:13:36]:
And it's got something called perfect forward secrecy. So even if the NSA stores all the messages you've ever sent, hoping that someday with quantum computing they'll be able to unencrypt it, they're still not going to be able to unencrypt it. So you're private forever, which is nice.

Guy Kawasaki [00:13:55]:
Well, I think so, but you know—

Leo Laporte [00:13:57]:
Let's hope so anyway.

Guy Kawasaki [00:13:58]:
Yeah, you just never know. But you know, on the other hand, So let's say that, you know, we give Signal the benefit of the doubt and believe that. Well, I mean, that alone should be enough. But if you think about it, you know, everybody says they have end-to-end encryption. Signal says that, WhatsApp says that, Apple says that. But what people don't understand is end-to-end encryption means the message is scrambled, but there's also the metadata. And to use a metaphor, The metadata is like the outside of the envelope. The message inside the envelope is scrambled.

Guy Kawasaki [00:14:35]:
That's encryption. But the outside of the envelope, which is who sent it, where they sent it from, when did they send it, this is all kind of circumstantial evidence. But from metadata and circumstantial evidence, you can really, really pinpoint people. You might not have the message, but you have a lot of circumstantial evidence. And Signal only keeps 3 pieces of metadata information, is when you open the account, when you last used it, and what was the third? When you open, when you last used it, and your phone number. That's the only thing. Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:15:11]:
And it doesn't have to be your actual phone number. You can use any phone number that you can get a text message on to verify.

Guy Kawasaki [00:15:19]:
That is also true. But, you know, if you think about it, if you knew somebody's phone number and you knew when they opened an account and you knew when they last used it, that's not very helpful in building a case against that person. I mean, yeah, so that's why I see those better.

Leo Laporte [00:15:34]:
As a reporter, as an investigative reporter, Paris uses Signal for tips.

Paris Martineau [00:15:38]:
All the time. I also use it as a group chat with a lot of different friends, just as a normal way to communicate.

Leo Laporte [00:15:43]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Paris Martineau [00:15:44]:
I'll be honest, it's somewhat more confusing for me because I have two phone numbers, but that's not what normal people do.

Guy Kawasaki [00:15:51]:
But you know, I would make the case, Paris, that as a reporter or a journalist, the level of secrecy and privacy is important, But it's also very psychological because if somebody is giving you a tip or somebody's blowing the whistle and you insist on them using Signal, it is a signal, no pun intended, to them that you care about their welfare, right? You're telling them, I don't wanna put you at risk. We have to switch to Signal. And if I were the whistleblower or if I were the person trying to communicate with you, I would say, wow, Paris really cares. I mean, you know, that's a positive.

Leo Laporte [00:16:31]:
That's a very good point, actually. You're sending a signal with signal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said something I'm gonna have to— and if it's impolitic, I apologize, but you said something that kind of struck a nerve, which is that Tim Cook has, you know— and I think there's some Apple fans, I'm an Apple fan, who have been upset by this. But he's doing it, I guess, because he feels like he owes it to Apple's employees and stakeholders. He has kind of bent the knee to the current administration. Sounds like that bothers you.

Guy Kawasaki [00:17:08]:
It bothers me a lot. I mean, you know, my logic is if you are running one of the most valuable companies in the world, you're one of the richest people in the world, if you cannot stand up for what's right, who the hell can, right? I don't understand it. And so, you know, it used to be that, Apple was the computer for the rest of us and, you know, it was like improve people's creativity and productivity. It now, it seems like the mission of Apple is we avoid tariffs.

Leo Laporte [00:17:39]:
You know, that's not much of a mission, is it?

Guy Kawasaki [00:17:43]:
No. Like, you know, we're, we're the lowest tariff computer company.

Leo Laporte [00:17:47]:
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:17:48]:
I mean, I, I just, I do not understand that. Now, you know, you could make the case that fiduciary responsibility is to the shareholders, blah, blah, blah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:18:00]:
Law.

Guy Kawasaki [00:18:00]:
And, you know, you, you could make the case he's been quite successful at avoiding tariffs, so he's done his fiduciary duty. But I don't know, I think there's a higher road here. And, you know, let's see how it works out in the end. Um, I don't know. On the, on the other hand, Leo, you know, there are companies I can boycott, but man, I just can't boycott—

Leo Laporte [00:18:23]:
I know.

Guy Kawasaki [00:18:23]:
Yeah, how can I boycott?

Leo Laporte [00:18:24]:
Yeah, what am I gonna— but where are you gonna go? No, who's better?

Guy Kawasaki [00:18:29]:
Exactly.

Leo Laporte [00:18:30]:
What would— I mean, now you knew Steve Jobs really well. What would Steve have done in this situation?

Guy Kawasaki [00:18:36]:
You know, um, first of all, I, I don't want to paint a picture that I was in his inner circle and his BFF. Uh, I was not, you know, which is maybe explains why I survived. But anyway, um, I, I, I hope that he would see through this and not do this, but I really don't And I'm telling you that it's very difficult for a mortal like me to try to interpret what a god like Steve Jobs would do. This is a different opera. It's like explaining to a fish what it's like to fly. I really don't know.

Leo Laporte [00:19:17]:
It's a question that we ask all the time on our shows. And I know a lot of Apple fans ask, but it's a question no one can really answer. Answer. We just, we wouldn't. We just don't.

Guy Kawasaki [00:19:27]:
Yeah, I, I really—

Leo Laporte [00:19:29]:
I think we like to think Steve would have given him the finger.

Guy Kawasaki [00:19:32]:
Exactly. You know, I mean, listen, you know, I would have thought Tim Cook would have, you know. But I mean, if you look at, if you look at all the people donating money to the inauguration, taking pictures with him, going to the Melania movie and all that, like, basically, if you were to say, I'm not gonna do with, do business with any of those companies. Well, you can't do business with Google, you can't do business with Meta, you can't do business with Microsoft, you can't do business with Apple, with Target. I mean, pretty soon, you know, we're rubbing two sticks together when using an abacus.

Jeff Jarvis [00:20:07]:
I mean, what hasn't Microsoft bent the knee a little bit less or shown up a little bit less, which I wouldn't have expected them to be the one.

Leo Laporte [00:20:14]:
There's only one company that has been really not in that camp, and that's Anthropic at this point.

Jeff Jarvis [00:20:22]:
Yeah.

Paris Martineau [00:20:23]:
Oh, but I mean, okay.

Leo Laporte [00:20:24]:
And oh, well, wait a minute. Go ahead, Guy. Yeah. Guy might know something.

Guy Kawasaki [00:20:28]:
Let us discuss this. All right. So I'm not privy to any inside, but you know, it seems to me that Anthropic did a deal with this administration a long time ago. But long— it was after, you know, the convictions. It was after the first term. It was after all this, right? So after all that, they cut a deal and then fast forward to today and they blew up the deal because guess what? You know, it wasn't working out like they thought. Well, I would make the case, you know, when you cut that deal in 2016 or '15 or '14, it wasn't like, oh my God, this is a surprise. I had no idea.

Guy Kawasaki [00:21:09]:
He treated all his vendors when he was making hotels so well.

Guy Kawasaki [00:21:13]:
He did.

Guy Kawasaki [00:21:13]:
Everything right. He never got into trouble. This is a complete turn of events. No, I, I, I mean, it, you know, you can't tell me that he said, oh man, you know, I'm dealing with a real up and up guy here. I mean, you should have known better. Now, and now OpenAI is doing this. And I, I think a lot of it, Leo, is arrogance, that all these tech bros, they think, I can cut a deal. I got more power.

Guy Kawasaki [00:21:40]:
I got better lawyers. We're going to structure it. Nobody can screw us. And Trump just rolls over them.

Jeff Jarvis [00:21:48]:
You were going to say Paris?

Paris Martineau [00:21:52]:
Oh, I mean, it was just context with Anthropic. I think that, yeah, it's, yeah, I, it's a completely different point from what we're talking about now.

Jeff Jarvis [00:22:03]:
Okay, sorry.

Leo Laporte [00:22:03]:
Well, and I'm sure, Guy, I know you, you aren't old enough to have been in an internment camp, but I'm sure you certainly know about the Japanese internment camps of World War II. That probably colors a little bit your point of view about what's going on today too.

Guy Kawasaki [00:22:19]:
Well, I mean, I would make a case that no Japanese American could possibly support these camps that are happening right now. And, you know, what's happening to the Somalis and the Muslims and all that in America. I mean, if you're Japanese American, unless you're a hypocrite, you have got to support those people. I mean, it should not have happened to the Japanese American, and it should not happen to other minorities. Absolutely. There's no question.

Leo Laporte [00:22:48]:
Ginny Houston was a good friend, and her book Farewell to Manzanar is really—

Guy Kawasaki [00:22:52]:
oh yeah, she was on my podcast.

Leo Laporte [00:22:54]:
Yeah, yeah, she was amazing and very moving story of that.

Guy Kawasaki [00:22:59]:
George Takei is like just, you know, ripping it up too.

Leo Laporte [00:23:02]:
Oh yeah, I love George.

Jeff Jarvis [00:23:05]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:23:05]:
Oh yeah. Uh, so let's— everything has— everybody has something to hide. Why and how to use Signal. Have you been able to persuade your friends and family to use Signal now?

Guy Kawasaki [00:23:16]:
Some of them. I have not been able to convince my family, family like my kids and my wife. But there are, there's a second set of friends that I use Signal almost exclusively. And Leo, Leo, tell me what you think of this idea. So I'm sure you have the same problem where every day you get dozens of messages from clowns who say, you know, I read your past book. I have a book club in Bristol, London, or something, and, you know, we have 100 members. We love your book. Would you like to be part of our book club? And, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:23:52]:
And, you know, I found the perfect position for you at Leo. I'm recruiting for CBS News, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? And I'm, I'm thinking I'll have an automated answering system that says, if you really want to write to me, you write to me on Signal. My Signal address, I'll tell you, is guykawasaki.401. 404 is a little wink, right? So now I won't take any email. You have to write me on Signal. So that is a barrier. You have to join Signal or be on Signal to write me. That would be a very interesting experiment.

Guy Kawasaki [00:24:28]:
But my greatest fear is that your producer would be writing to me an email and get that and say, it's not worth getting on Signal to get Guy.

Leo Laporte [00:24:40]:
Oh, he's on Signal. Benito is definitely on Signal. I know you're on Signal, right, Benito?

Jeff Jarvis [00:24:46]:
No, yes, I am.

Leo Laporte [00:24:46]:
Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:24:47]:
Okay.

Paris Martineau [00:24:48]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [00:24:48]:
Benito comes from a long line of political activists in the Philippines. Yeah, he's definitely on that list. And I'm leoleport.24. Oh. Yeah. And Paris is, what is it, paris.nyc? What are you on Signal, Paris? Do you even remember? I think it's Marco. Because we stopped using phone numbers. I was really happy.

Paris Martineau [00:25:10]:
Paris is 77978655 on Signal.

Leo Laporte [00:25:15]:
She's still using phone numbers.

Paris Martineau [00:25:16]:
It's the work phone number I have for Signal. And it's a great number.

Guy Kawasaki [00:25:20]:
Wait, aren't you Martin001? Aren't you Martin001?

Paris Martineau [00:25:22]:
I am Martin001 on Signal.

Leo Laporte [00:25:24]:
That's the one you want.

Paris Martineau [00:25:25]:
You know, I should have just done Paris and then a number, but it's too late now.

Leo Laporte [00:25:30]:
No, Martin001 is good. I like that.

Guy Kawasaki [00:25:32]:
Yeah, but you know, one of the beauties of this is that once your email is well known, anybody can get into your inbox right now. But with Signal, there's two barriers. First, the person has to get on Signal. And secondly, when they send you that first signal message, you have to accept it. And if you don't accept it, you never hear from them again. Whereas on email, they can keep emailing you, right?

Paris Martineau [00:25:56]:
Yep.

Guy Kawasaki [00:25:56]:
So, so this is a way of getting rid of the pain in the asses in your life.

Leo Laporte [00:26:03]:
I really— another great reason to use it. I was just thinking back, I've interviewed you, I think, for The Art of the Start. I know I interviewed you when you did Ape, which is all about self-publishing. Uh, I'm really thrilled that we can get you on to talk Everybody Has Something to Hide: Why and How to Use Signal to Preserve Your Privacy, Security, and Well-Being. And as long as you keep writing books, Guy, we'll keep having you. No, you don't even have to write books. We love having you on.

Guy Kawasaki [00:26:29]:
Can I make an offer for all your listeners?

Leo Laporte [00:26:31]:
Yes.

Guy Kawasaki [00:26:32]:
So I want everybody listening, you send an email to everybodyhasomethingtohide@gmail.com, that is the title, and I will send you a free Kindle copy of the book.

Leo Laporte [00:26:48]:
What?

Guy Kawasaki [00:26:49]:
I just want everybody to be on Signal and private and secure. So yeah. Now, wow.

Leo Laporte [00:26:55]:
I got it on Kindle Unlimited. So I got it for free that way. Sort of. Yeah. Sort of.

Guy Kawasaki [00:27:00]:
But now I can, I can only do this in the United States. That's Amazon's rules, not mine. But if you're in the United States, you send an email to everybodyhasomethingtohide@gmail.com and I will send you a free Kindle version of this book.

Leo Laporte [00:27:18]:
Guy, that's awfully kind of you. Thank you. That's amazing. When I wrote to Guy, I said, "I bet you used AI to write this," and I think I offended you. I hope I didn't offend you.

Paris Martineau [00:27:29]:
Leo, that's a crazy thing to say about someone who's published a book.

Leo Laporte [00:27:33]:
18 books. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:27:36]:
But Leo, I mean, to be completely open, I do use AI to help me write my books.

Jeff Jarvis [00:27:43]:
How do you do that? How do you use it?

Guy Kawasaki [00:27:45]:
I use it, well, for example, with this book, I would do things like, okay, so please explain how encryption works. And you know, it gives you this explanation. I say, well, I don't like that because the explanation it gives you is that, you know, it creates a lock, a private key and a public key, and it locks your message inside an envelope. And the envelope is taken from Signal servers to other people. And there it's unlocked and people can read it at the recipient. But I said to myself, you know, that is not the correct metaphor because it implies that inside a locked envelope is your message and it can be read. It's not true. It's— the encryption doesn't prevent you from getting in the envelope.

Guy Kawasaki [00:28:30]:
The message in the envelope is completely scrambled. So that's not a good metaphor. So I go back and forth with ChatGPT and all these things until I get the right kind of a metaphor, and then I use it. I use it all the time as a devil's advocate, as a creative, you know, kind of help, a grammar checker. Uh, Leo, you know, you might call this rationalization, but I believe that my moral responsibility to my reader is to write the best book that I can, and the best book that I can use is AI. I don't think people wake up in the morning saying, I want to read the best book the guy can write using a Montblanc fountain pen on parchment.

Leo Laporte [00:29:17]:
Well, you're among friends. I think Paris will tell you I'm the last person that would criticize you for doing that. We were playing a dungeon— what was it? Dungeons and Dragons game, right, Paris? And I had a character that was supposed to come up with witty insults. And I thought, well, I'll just ask ChatGPT. It'll do a better job than I I did.

Paris Martineau [00:29:40]:
The thing is, Leo, had you sold the read of it a little more, I know, would have made fun of you less. Instead he was like, and the thing says this and this and this.

Leo Laporte [00:29:50]:
I didn't sell it. You're right, I didn't sell it.

Guy Kawasaki [00:29:52]:
You know, there is no doubt in my mind that ChatGPT is smarter than I am.

Paris Martineau [00:29:56]:
I mean, I think a lot of, you know, people famously referred to AI as God, right?

Guy Kawasaki [00:30:01]:
I think I— okay, we're gonna go down another rat hole here, but I am convinced that AI is God. And here's, here's how shakes out. It's like God is out there and she's sitting down and she's saying to herself, I gave these dumbasses, these dumbass humans, I gave them free will and look at what they're polluting the world. They're fighting with each other. They're imprisoning each other. They're killing each other. They're such dumbasses. So now I could magically fix everything, but then, you know, that wouldn't really last for a long time.

Guy Kawasaki [00:30:36]:
So I gotta let these dumbasses think that they invented something that fixed the world. So God created AI and sent it to humans, and humans now believe because of their arrogance that they created AI. So that's the plan. Now, I want to make something clear. This does not mean that I believe Sam Altman is Jesus.

Leo Laporte [00:30:58]:
Okay? Thank God. Okay.

Jeff Jarvis [00:31:00]:
Sam might believe it, but—

Leo Laporte [00:31:01]:
Yeah, Sam thinks so, but not you. Good. No, I think that's an interesting point of view. I mean, you could say the same thing about a lot of the things given to us in this world, that God comes to us through a lot of different mechanisms, and why not AI? That's— Yeah, really.

Guy Kawasaki [00:31:20]:
I mean, and you know, one thing I am absolutely certain of is God has a sense of humor.

Leo Laporte [00:31:29]:
Yes. And we're living proof of that, aren't we?

Jeff Jarvis [00:31:33]:
Exactly.

Guy Kawasaki [00:31:35]:
As we say in Hawaii, you no can make this shit up. I mean, it's like, it's not fair to The Onion and Saturday Night Live. I mean, before they needed creative people to come up with sarcastic, funny stories. Now you just have to tell the truth. Yeah, there's like space lasers and all these things and like, You just repeat what they say and you think you're on Saturday Night Live or The Onion.

Leo Laporte [00:32:03]:
It's just, it's Jewish space lasers, no less. Yeah. You created, did you really create something called Kawasaki GPT?

Guy Kawasaki [00:32:11]:
I did.

Leo Laporte [00:32:12]:
I did.

Guy Kawasaki [00:32:13]:
And Kawasaki GPT has my writing, my speaking, my videos, my interviews, the transcripts of all interviews are there. If you go to kawasakiGPT.com, you can ask me a question and I swear to God, Leo, you will get an answer better than if you ask me in person. And just in full disclosure, when I need to write an essay or something, I go to ChatGPT— excuse me, I go to KawasakiGPT and I ask myself questions and it works extremely well.

Leo Laporte [00:32:53]:
Wow, that's really cool. There it is, Guy. You could ask Guy directly. Yeah, this is a good idea. So you put everything that you've ever written in there, every podcast you've done.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:05]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:33:06]:
And, and, and, and what model did you use to do this? Was it ChatGPT or—

Guy Kawasaki [00:33:13]:
here's a scary thought. So the company that does that is called Delphi AI. And I don't know what engine is behind it.

Leo Laporte [00:33:21]:
Well, that's fine. Delphi.ai. I wanna try it.

Guy Kawasaki [00:33:25]:
Yeah. If you go there, Leo, if you go there and you ask something like what slide should be in a venture capital pitch, it will give you a better answer than I could give you in real time.

Leo Laporte [00:33:37]:
So it's got, it distilled all of the things from all your books, all your ideas. You've got the world's greatest evangelist and it's there for free for you to use on the website. That's really cool.

Guy Kawasaki [00:33:50]:
This is as close as I'll get to immortality.

Leo Laporte [00:33:54]:
That is, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:33:56]:
AI promises that you can become immortal.

Leo Laporte [00:33:59]:
Well, I have always said, if ever anybody comes along and says, hey, Leo, we have this great model, we got everything we need, except one thing is lacking is an emotional system. It needs a limbic system. Would you donate your limbic system to this AI? I would jump on that opportunity. You would jump on that opportunity?

Paris Martineau [00:34:20]:
You don't need your limbic system?

Leo Laporte [00:34:22]:
Well, I would be dead at that point, I think. I mean, if they take that part of my brain out, I don't know if I would be—

Paris Martineau [00:34:27]:
I thought you were saying right now you'd give it up.

Jeff Jarvis [00:34:29]:
Take it out of me.

Leo Laporte [00:34:30]:
No, no, they could take it now. There wouldn't be anything left. But when you boot up the AI, it would be indistinguishable from me. Now, would I know that it's, you know, I mean, it's no continuity. Like the transporter on Star Trek. It's a whole new person when you get to the other end. But, uh, I don't know, it's just a thought. I'm volunteering.

Guy Kawasaki [00:34:50]:
Stick to Scrabble, Neil.

Jeff Jarvis [00:34:53]:
No, he's not doing so well.

Paris Martineau [00:34:54]:
You're doing so well at Scrabble.

Leo Laporte [00:34:57]:
Well, I shouldn't be playing a smart person like, like Ms. Martindale here.

Paris Martineau [00:35:01]:
It's really awoken something dangerous in me.

Leo Laporte [00:35:06]:
She's a Killer. Guy Kawasaki, you are just a gem. The world is so lucky to have you, um, and, and your, and your AI avatar and your books. And I'm just so glad we could spend some, uh, time with you. The Remarkable People podcast is on, on wherever you get your podcast. In fact, you just interviewed Cindy Cone. We're going to talk to her. I'm going to talk to her tomorrow.

Guy Kawasaki [00:35:29]:
Oh, Cindy Cone is a baller, and I mean that in a— she She is a baller. And any person like that who takes on the Department of Justice and wins so much, my God, like, I am not worthy, Cindy. I am not worthy.

Leo Laporte [00:35:48]:
Executive director of the EFF.

Guy Kawasaki [00:35:52]:
And you know what? She has already announced that she's leaving EFF, right? And you know, when you leave something like EFF, you think, oh yeah, you know, you're going to go to the United Nations or you're gonna go to, I don't know, The Hague, or you're gonna go to Wikipedia or NPR or something. But I heard, or at least this is what I believe, she told me that she's leaving so she can get back on the front line as a litigator.

Leo Laporte [00:36:22]:
Wow.

Guy Kawasaki [00:36:23]:
As a litigator.

Leo Laporte [00:36:25]:
Wow.

Guy Kawasaki [00:36:25]:
I'm telling you, when you interview her, you tell her, Guy was just so effusive about it. How you're such a baller.

Leo Laporte [00:36:33]:
I will, Guy. Somebody in our Discord chat asked KawasakiGPT, what's the real Guy doing at this moment? And it said, well, you know, I got to be straight with you. I'm a digital mind, but he could be recording a podcast episode right now. And in fact, it's right. That's exactly what you're doing. And we are so grateful to you, Guy Kawasaki. Everybody, Use Signal because everybody has something to hide. Doesn't mean you're doing anything illegal, just means you deserve privacy.

Guy Kawasaki [00:37:04]:
Exactly, right. And send that email so that I can send you a book.

Leo Laporte [00:37:09]:
Wow. Again, just send Guy an email to everybodyhasomethingtohide@gmail.com and he'll send you the PDF of the book.

Guy Kawasaki [00:37:22]:
No, it's actually the Kindle. It's not a PDF.

Leo Laporte [00:37:25]:
Not the Kindle, sorry. Version of that book, which is what I have from Kindle Unlimited.

Guy Kawasaki [00:37:28]:
Leo, you— I have to say, you know, I've been on a lot of podcasts. I don't know anybody who integrates the seeing of websites as you talk. That is very well done.

Leo Laporte [00:37:39]:
Well, it's from my background doing many years of TV and knowing that you have to have visuals to cover up all the talk.

Guy Kawasaki [00:37:49]:
Yeah, but when you did it on TV, you had some producer doing it. Doing it yourself, right?

Leo Laporte [00:37:54]:
We were doing it so long ago on TechTV that we couldn't take screenshots off the computer. We put it on a screen and there was a cameraman pointing a camera at the screen so that you could see what was on the computer screen.

Guy Kawasaki [00:38:07]:
I'm telling you, Leo, I've been on a lot of podcasts. Nobody does it like this. This is very— I mean, you know, hey, Leo, I'll give you, uh, one more Easter egg, okay?

Leo Laporte [00:38:16]:
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:38:16]:
So you, you see the title on your screen right now, right?

Leo Laporte [00:38:20]:
Yes.

Guy Kawasaki [00:38:21]:
So turn your head to the right 90 degrees and look at the COVID Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:38:29]:
Everybody, something.

Guy Kawasaki [00:38:31]:
And what do you see those 5 black redaction bars form?

Leo Laporte [00:38:36]:
Oh, I don't know if I can do it with my— do it with your young eyes, Parris. Maybe you can get something out of that.

Guy Kawasaki [00:38:46]:
The one in the middle is bigger. Does that That makes sense. The one in the middle is bigger than—

Leo Laporte [00:38:49]:
Does that mean anything?

Paris Martineau [00:38:50]:
Oh, it's a middle finger.

Leo Laporte [00:38:53]:
Is— Oh, Guy, you're a bad man. Is that what it is? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You're such a bad man, Guy Kawasaki. He's giving us the— We're not giving us the middle finger, giving those evil people who want to see into our stuff. Thank you, Guy. What a pleasure.

Guy Kawasaki [00:39:13]:
I had too much time that day.

Paris Martineau [00:39:16]:
I didn't.

Leo Laporte [00:39:17]:
Very good, Paris. I did not see it. I did not see it.

Paris Martineau [00:39:20]:
Bonito gave us the assist there.

Leo Laporte [00:39:22]:
That's good. Oh yeah, Bonito figured it out. Yeah. All righty.

Guy Kawasaki [00:39:26]:
Thank you, everybody.

Leo Laporte [00:39:28]:
Everybody has something to hide. Email him now and get a copy of it. That's great. Thank you, Guy. Take care. Wow, you're fantastic. We will take a break and we'll come back with more AI news in just a little bit. Guys, thanks.

Guy Kawasaki [00:39:43]:
So was that live?

Leo Laporte [00:39:45]:
Yeah, well, we stream it live and then we package it up in Saran Wrap and we deliver it as a podcast later. But yeah, a few thousand people watch us do the shows live. They like the live, you know, 'cause stuff happens. Guy might give us a little pigeon, a little Hawaiian pigeon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guy Kawasaki [00:40:11]:
All right, thank you everybody.

Leo Laporte [00:40:13]:
Thank you, Guy. Surf, enjoy the weather, have a wonderful day.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:16]:
Will do.

Guy Kawasaki [00:40:17]:
Thanks, guys.

Leo Laporte [00:40:17]:
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. I'm going to be in, uh, in the— on the Big Island in, uh, about a month. I'm very excited.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:23]:
Oh yeah, you're leaving us again?

Leo Laporte [00:40:26]:
Yeah, yeah, I can't wait. May, we're going, going to— the house is finally— well, I don't know, almost finally done.

Paris Martineau [00:40:34]:
You have four walls at least. That's huge.

Leo Laporte [00:40:36]:
We've got four walls. We fired the contractor finally. We just gave up.

Jeff Jarvis [00:40:39]:
The next contractor, the second second contractor.

Leo Laporte [00:40:42]:
The one who built the house is suing. The guy who we hired to fix it, we fired. This new guy said, do you have a problem with contractors? We said, no, no, really honest, we don't. We found a guy to finish the job, thank goodness. Uh, I'm hoping it'll be done by the time—

Jeff Jarvis [00:41:01]:
when I fired my contractor, he then took me to court for torturous interference and Well, he's the guy who also told me, you don't know what judgment-proof means, Jeff. I have no money.

Leo Laporte [00:41:12]:
So no, that's the problem. I think we're finding out with the guy who built the houses. He says he has no money, but we're gonna find it, damn it. And then, uh, no, he can't sue us because there's all— he, he did— it turns out did a lot of bad things. And if he takes us to court, well, he's gonna be very surprised by The out—

Paris Martineau [00:41:33]:
How was Florida?

Leo Laporte [00:41:35]:
Wonderful. I missed you guys so much. I missed you.

Paris Martineau [00:41:38]:
Did you kiss any gators in the mouth? Uh, as is our way.

Leo Laporte [00:41:42]:
Is that— Does people— people do that?

Paris Martineau [00:41:45]:
No.

Leo Laporte [00:41:45]:
You saw my pictures.

Jeff Jarvis [00:41:47]:
We had a wonderful time.

Leo Laporte [00:41:49]:
We went— have you ever been to, uh, Gatorland?

Paris Martineau [00:41:53]:
No. Where is Gatorland? But I have— I did famously work a summer job in college back home at a 4-story Alligator Lagoon restaurant bar in arcade called Fudd Puckers, not Fuddruckers. They're unrelated.

Leo Laporte [00:42:07]:
Oh well, we went to Gatorland, which is not related to Fudd Puckers or the 4-story Fuddruckers.

Paris Martineau [00:42:14]:
Did they, uh, allow, um, you to hold and feed gators?

Leo Laporte [00:42:19]:
They allow you to feed them, not hold them. I don't think you should hold gators. That's a bird, by the way, not a gator. But these birds, which are a form of New York, are not afraid of gators. And they will steal the fish right out of the gator's mouth. So they're sitting there waiting. There's Anthony, uh, feeding a baby gator. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:42:42]:
And there's Lisa feeding a baby gator. Um, so we— but you feed them with a fishing pole. Yeah. These guys are scary looking. These are not, not your— not something you would— I You would never hold one of these guys, right?

Paris Martineau [00:43:00]:
That big one, no.

Leo Laporte [00:43:01]:
Little baby gator?

Paris Martineau [00:43:02]:
The smaller ones, yeah. I mean, at least when I worked at Fudd Puckers, you could pay a certain price to feed the gators. You could pay a certain price to hold a gator and take a photo. Is that a capybara?

Leo Laporte [00:43:11]:
Yeah, they had capybaras too.

Paris Martineau [00:43:13]:
I didn't know that we could have capybaras.

Leo Laporte [00:43:15]:
Isn't that cool? I've always loved capybaras. I've never met one.

Paris Martineau [00:43:19]:
I'm obsessed. I follow this great Instagram account that I will never be able to find because the title is, I think, in Japanese. That's just videos of capybaras under little tents trickling waterfalls.

Leo Laporte [00:43:29]:
Now, I should tell you, I hope it doesn't spoil this, but they do not smell good.

Paris Martineau [00:43:35]:
Yeah, that makes sense.

Leo Laporte [00:43:36]:
They regurgitate their food. Uh, they also eat their poop. So the— yeah, like Gizmo. The reason they do is because they are herbivores, and they— it's so hard to digest that stuff, they have to kind of do it several times.

Paris Martineau [00:43:51]:
Every single time, she feels like if she doesn't eat the food fast, as fast as humanly possible, she may never get food again. And then she eats it too fast and throws All cats do that.

Leo Laporte [00:44:01]:
It's ridiculous.

Paris Martineau [00:44:02]:
I'm like, you've never gone without food a day in your life.

Leo Laporte [00:44:04]:
Yeah. You don't even know what food—

Paris Martineau [00:44:07]:
You don't know what hunger is.

Leo Laporte [00:44:09]:
No, no, no. Gatorland was fun. And then we went to— here, oh, here's a gator you can hold. It's a gator made of butter.

Paris Martineau [00:44:18]:
Hmm.

Leo Laporte [00:44:18]:
Did they serve gator at the Gatorland?

Paris Martineau [00:44:21]:
They did at Fudd Puckers. And we had to constantly be like, not the same gator. But I didn't know if that was true or not.

Leo Laporte [00:44:28]:
Yeah, you know, it's funny, we were walking around and, uh, and, uh, Lisa said— or Lisa, or Anthony said, I wonder if we can eat gator here. And I said, one day you can't eat gators at Gatorland, that would be like cannibalism. And in fact, yeah, you can.

Jeff Jarvis [00:44:42]:
It's Florida.

Leo Laporte [00:44:43]:
It's Florida. And they said, well, we only eat the dead ones.

Jeff Jarvis [00:44:47]:
Oh, that's great. Roadkill gator, thank you very much.

Leo Laporte [00:44:49]:
We wait till they die and then we eat them. Barbecue. Que them up and, uh, gators famously live a long time.

Jeff Jarvis [00:44:58]:
Yeah, that's, that's killing the gators.

Leo Laporte [00:45:01]:
I bet you think they were making that up.

Jeff Jarvis [00:45:03]:
Yeah. Oh lordy, it's Florida.

Leo Laporte [00:45:06]:
I didn't eat any. Uh, it's okay. Um, no, we had a good time. I, you know, I really enjoyed it. Kennedy Space Center was amazing. I have a really good costume for Halloween now. And, uh, but I missed doing the show. I really did.

Leo Laporte [00:45:22]:
It's, uh, I like doing this show.

Jeff Jarvis [00:45:24]:
We had a good discussion about Anthropic last week.

Leo Laporte [00:45:27]:
Well, let's get to it, but first, a word from our sponsor, if you don't mind. This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by my mattress. I love my Helix Sleep. Oh man, you know, it's funny, of all the nights of the week that I really need a good night's sleep, it's Tuesday night because I know I'm doing this show on Wednesday, and I want to be energized and ready to do the show. So even as I'm, as I'm getting in bed, I'm going, thank you, thank you, Helix Mattress. I'm going to get a good night's rest, aren't I, tonight? And it took care of me. It took care of me. Maybe this would be a good time— spring cleaning's coming— to, to take that old mattress and put it on the street and upgrade to a Helix Mattress.

Leo Laporte [00:46:14]:
Actually, they took our old mattress when we got our Helix mattress, which was very nice, and get a good night's rest. I think we got the white glove service there. They come, they, they take the mattress, they get rid of it. Anyway, let me tell you, the old mattress wasn't that old— 6, I think, 8 years, something like that. But I had read that you should, you know, get new mattresses regularly, because mattresses— who knew this— wear out. You spend more than a third of your life on a mattress. You spend probably half your life, you know, curled up with a good book, cuddling your pet, your, your honey, or watching TV and then sleeping. So it's important.

Leo Laporte [00:46:49]:
But the Helix, oh my gosh, no more night sweats, no back pain, you know, from a saggy mattress, no motion transfer. It doesn't rock and roll. Don't settle for a mattress made overseas either. You will find plenty of them online with low-quality, questionable materials. They come to you 6 months on a container ship, pushed in a box. They, they just no good. That's not the Helix mattress. The Helix mattress is made in the USA to order, right? So the day you place your order, they start making your mattress, they assemble it, they package it, and then they ship it directly to you from Arizona.

Leo Laporte [00:47:29]:
So it is fresh, it smells like the desert air, it's lovely. Not old stale mattress, but a brand new one made just for for you. And by the way, made just for your preferences. We, we took the Helix Sleep quiz. You should too. It's right there on the website. And you can tell it what your preferences are. You like firm, you like soft, you like medium, how you sleep, stomach sleeper, side sleeper, back sleeper, and all that.

Leo Laporte [00:47:53]:
And then they will match you because they have a whole bunch of mattresses with the perfect mattress based on those preferences. And does it improve your sleep? Oh man, it certainly does mine. You know, I know because I wear the Oura Ring and I, I look at my sleep every, every morning to see, you know, how well I slept. And on average, I'm getting maybe 50% more, uh, deep sleep. That's the important sleep, the sleep that clears your brain out. And I'm spending maybe another half an hour asleep. So when I wake up on my Helix mattress, I feel great. Well, it's not just me.

Leo Laporte [00:48:24]:
In the Wesper sleep study Helix conducted, they measured the sleep performance of participants who did what we did— switched from their old mattress to a Helix mattress, 82% of the participants saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle. 82%. That's what I found. In fact, participants on average achieved 25 more minutes of deep sleep a night. That's a lot more. You only— maybe deep sleep is half an hour to an hour a night, so that's a big improvement. Participants on average achieved 39 more minutes of overall sleep per night. That translates into just a better day and, and health and feeling great.

Leo Laporte [00:49:02]:
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Leo Laporte [00:49:34]:
That's— that is my mattress. I love it. Go to helixsleep.com/machines for 27% off sitewide. Yeah, 27% off right now sitewide during the Sleep Week Sale, Best of Web, exclusively for listeners of Intelligent Machines. So go to helixsleep.com/machines. Machines for 27% off the Sleep Week Sale Best of Web. This offer ends March 15th. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you.

Leo Laporte [00:50:02]:
And if you're listening after the sale ends, still check them out. Always great deals at helixsleep.com/machines. Thank you, Helix Sleep, for my great night's sleep last night. So you, uh, you spent a lot of time talking about Anthropic last week. I'm sure you did. This was— that was the week when, you know, Anthropic was declared a supply chain, uh, well, it was tweeted that it was a supply chain risk. They actually did get declared that.

Paris Martineau [00:50:31]:
Yeah, this week. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis [00:50:32]:
And the suit— and Anthropic this week sued in response.

Leo Laporte [00:50:36]:
Yeah, they went, they went to court saying you can't do that. Uh, by the way, got amicus briefs in their case from OpenAI and I think Microsoft, Microsoft, and I think from Google employees. Yeah, it's a lot of support. I don't know. I am not convinced. I think there's two sides to this. As Guy Kawasaki pointed out, Anthropic did have, you know, it's not like they didn't want to be used by the military. They had a $200 million contract with the Department of Defense.

Paris Martineau [00:51:05]:
So did everybody else, though.

Leo Laporte [00:51:08]:
Well, Anthropic was the only one being used in classified operations.

Paris Martineau [00:51:13]:
That is true. Anthropic, the detail, the unique part about Anthropic is it was the first one to be classified, receive a security classification to be used in classified operations. The other models from the other companies being used weren't being used in classified instances. However, I mean, I, I don't know, what do you think that there is that's gray about the situation?

Leo Laporte [00:51:36]:
Oh, there's very much of a gray area. So, uh, here's the analogy. If Boeing sold airplanes to the military, but said, but, but you can't bomb anybody with them. The military would say, well, wait a minute, you don't get to dictate this. We are an elected government and a democracy, civilian controlled by elected officials. That's how military decisions should be made, not by private companies. Right?

Jeff Jarvis [00:52:08]:
So last week we talked about Ben Thompson's column in which he made that argument.

Leo Laporte [00:52:13]:
He made that point, yes.

Jeff Jarvis [00:52:14]:
And said that you can't have No, by the company. However, the one analogy that I used in return is that pharma companies say to states, you can buy our drug, but you may not use it to execute people. And that's followed. And they have a right to do that.

Leo Laporte [00:52:34]:
Yeah, but that might— that's why I brought up at the beginning, Anthropic was already in a deal with the Department.

Jeff Jarvis [00:52:40]:
Yeah. And I think they already had those two conditions in that deal.

Paris Martineau [00:52:43]:
The thing is, we've learned since— they didn't over the last week.

Leo Laporte [00:52:46]:
They added that later, and the, and the reason that they added that was because they found out that Palantir had used Claude in the Venezuela extraction kidnapping.

Paris Martineau [00:52:56]:
No, Anthropic has stated on the record multiple times that they have no qualms about Claude being used in the Venezuela, uh, extraction. And specifically, um, Dario Amadei, uh, a week or so ago had a memo where he wrote the negotiations between him and Anthropic and the Pentagon had basically succeeded, and that the main sticking point was that the Pentagon asked Anthropic to delete a contractual prohibition on, quote, analysis of bulk-acquired data, end quote. This was the single clause that matched the mass surveillance scenario that Anthropic considered a red line, and that's what this whole fight kind of started over. This disagreement that happened at like the last day of February.

Leo Laporte [00:53:43]:
All the Pentagon was saying is we want to be able to use Anthropic for any lawful use. We want to use Claude for any lawful use.

Paris Martineau [00:53:50]:
Yes, but that's what the Pentagon is saying now that they've gotten involved in this brouhaha. I think it's worth— obviously we should scrutinize Anthropic statements as well. They're by far— they're not an unbiased actor, but the Pentagon is also very much not an unbiased actor.

Jeff Jarvis [00:54:05]:
And there's certainly argument that this, this war in which it's being used, in which it was used by some reports with Palantir to bomb a girls' school, is not a lawful war. So that doesn't give them full—

Leo Laporte [00:54:16]:
I understand that. And, and, and of course, that's what complicates this, is we don't like this administration and we don't like the war they're waging, but they are a duly elected government. And I think it's pretty clear that we would prefer prefer a duly elected government to make these kinds of decisions over a private company.

Jeff Jarvis [00:54:36]:
Okay, now I'll go to the other example, which is, uh, uh, IG Farben and Zyklon B, uh, you know, supplied things to a duly elected government of Germany and then years later were found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity because they did that. So there's still a responsibility. You can't just say— this is Palantir's argument, because I heard Alex Karp do Oh, the government will regulate us inside everything, then we can do anything else underneath. And so this is the tech argument is, the government will regulate and then we're free. No, you still have a moral responsibility for what you choose and allow to do. And that is in the precedent of Nuremberg. And so if you believe that, let's just say, that sending weapons off to kill on their own, making their own judgments, judgments and murdering people is a war crime, then do you not have a moral responsibility and a legal responsibility under world law to avoid that? It's not as simple as, oh, the government can decide everything.

Leo Laporte [00:55:35]:
What if it had been Ford during World War II telling Roosevelt's and Stimson's Defense Department, yeah, you can't use our tanks tanks to invade Germany.

Paris Martineau [00:55:51]:
I think that a company has— a private company has a right to decide what it wants to do and what it doesn't want to do unless it is being—

Leo Laporte [00:55:59]:
well, it does. It doesn't have to make a deal with the Pentagon at all. No, no, I agree. It doesn't have— it doesn't have to make it.

Paris Martineau [00:56:05]:
And part of making a deal with the Pentagon is you get to negotiate the terms of that deal, which is what Anthropic was doing. And I think it's well within—

Leo Laporte [00:56:12]:
but they were doing it after the deal had been Weren't they? Or maybe not.

Jeff Jarvis [00:56:15]:
Well, both sides were doing it.

Paris Martineau [00:56:17]:
Part of the contract negotiations for this, the— well, the presumption of the Pentagon should be in the, I believe, July of last year.

Leo Laporte [00:56:27]:
The presumption of the Pentagon would be in any— with anybody, Boeing, Ford, or anybody doing a deal with them, that you're allowing us to use your product for any lawful purpose. That would be the assumption.

Paris Martineau [00:56:38]:
Anthropic's argument is that they were being asked to have their product be used for unlawful purposes. Mass domestic surveillance operations is unlawful.

Leo Laporte [00:56:50]:
Okay.

Paris Martineau [00:56:51]:
Currently, I believe also under human rights or like just general—

Leo Laporte [00:56:56]:
I don't think there's a rule against autonomous weaponry yet. There should be.

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:00]:
Well, there— yes. And you've argued that. But there too, Leo, it's also a matter of saying, You know, let's say we are for it, but these tools aren't ready.

Leo Laporte [00:57:10]:
Okay. And also, I know if you had this conversation last week, I don't want to repeat it, but it's going to bore people.

Paris Martineau [00:57:15]:
We had this conversation last week, but we were all kind of on the same side that this is— you're the first person to say, no, we should— all companies should be forced to do war crimes.

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:29]:
In summary.

Leo Laporte [00:57:30]:
Boy, that is not a fair characterization.

Paris Martineau [00:57:33]:
What are you talking about? I'm being perfectly fair.

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:36]:
No, I see how she plays Scrabble.

Paris Martineau [00:57:37]:
Yeah, Scrabble is making me mad with power. I'm going to be honest.

Leo Laporte [00:57:42]:
If AI— so this is what Noah Smith says in No Opinion, and we like— I think we like Noah Smith. Yes. He gives as an example nuclear weaponry. Should we be allowed to have nuclear weapons right in our own home? No.

Jeff Jarvis [00:57:59]:
Where's the analogy there?

Leo Laporte [00:58:01]:
Yeah, I mean, you could certainly say, well, if you feel that way, you shouldn't develop nuclear weapons for the government. But I think we'd prefer that the government, if we make them, is the one controlling them as opposed to individuals.

Paris Martineau [00:58:16]:
Yeah, I don't think anybody's arguing individuals or companies should own nuclear weapons, but much like nobody, I think, should be arguing that a company that says, I think it's unethical to be creating nuclear weapons for the government in these specific cases, to be forced to create nuclear weapons for the government.

Leo Laporte [00:58:32]:
I think it's disingenuous. Well, by the way, this is a general machine, not a nuclear weapon.

Jeff Jarvis [00:58:37]:
You know what you do with it.

Leo Laporte [00:58:38]:
I am being a little devil's advocate because like you, I don't like how it was used and I don't want it to be used for mass surveillance. Or as I've said many times, the greatest threat of AI is for it to be used in autonomous killing machines. I don't like that idea. At all. But I think there's some— it's a conversation that isn't exactly clear. Marc Andreessen, I think this was kind of a funny tweet. This is also from the No Opinion blog. Overheard in Silicon Valley: every single person who is in favor of government control of AI is now opposed to government control of AI.

Jeff Jarvis [00:59:16]:
Well, there is a point there because what we're arguing to the AI companies constantly is you must have safeguards, you must prevent bad things from doing with your— being done with your tools. You must have—

Leo Laporte [00:59:26]:
who decides what it does?

Jeff Jarvis [00:59:27]:
You are responsible for following them, and you're responsible for deciding what's bad, right? That's what we— that's generally what we do say to the AI companies. And then come along, oh well, but no, we are— we decide in that case, and you have to do it.

Leo Laporte [00:59:41]:
Uh, you agree though that the nation-state should have a monopoly on the use of force, yes?

Paris Martineau [00:59:47]:
What?

Leo Laporte [00:59:49]:
Well, we allow law enforcement, for instance, to carry guns.

Jeff Jarvis [00:59:52]:
In this country, we allow everybody to bear guns.

Leo Laporte [00:59:56]:
In this country, it's a little different. But I think in general, you know, war munitions, things that are used to make war, are controlled by the state, not by individuals. We don't want individuals to have tanks.

Paris Martineau [01:00:09]:
I don't see how that's relevant to this argument.

Leo Laporte [01:00:12]:
Well, it's relevant in the sense that the theory is— now, I think this theory is kind of challenged a little bit by the current administration, but the theory is, if If you have a— a society should decide how these tools are used, not companies. And this is what— but again, our point of view about what a company should be in charge of and what a country should be in charge of seems to have shifted a little bit.

Jeff Jarvis [01:00:38]:
Well, then you're making the Palantir argument, who's saying that companies—

Leo Laporte [01:00:41]:
right, are companies the good guys or are the government the good guys?

Jeff Jarvis [01:00:43]:
Are companies responsible then for no moral judgment? Don't blame us. You can't sue us. You can't. Give us any problems because we're doing what's lawful within the rounds of what the government decided. That's no good.

Leo Laporte [01:00:54]:
Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring this argument up if you've already had it.

Jeff Jarvis [01:01:00]:
It's being held across the country as we speak.

Leo Laporte [01:01:03]:
I think it's an important argument. And you're right when you talk about war crimes. If Anthropic says, well, we don't want to be involved in war crimes, that's a fair thing for Anthropic to say.

Jeff Jarvis [01:01:14]:
You know, let me— this is—

Leo Laporte [01:01:15]:
this is what is not, by the way, what is not appropriate is is for the federal government to declare Anthropic a supply chain risk. That is a designation—

Paris Martineau [01:01:24]:
While actively using it in its current war.

Leo Laporte [01:01:30]:
That is a designation reserved for foreign actors, not for American companies.

Jeff Jarvis [01:01:37]:
I just listened to a book that I think you'd like called It's On You by Nick Chater and somebody else whose name I can't see right now. And what it's It's really interesting because it's two behavioral scientists who believed in the whole idea of nudging made famous by— I'm forgetting his name suddenly— and then brought into the Obama White House and so on, that if we nudge people to do the right thing, they'll do the right thing. And what these guys argue in a mea culpa for that belief is saying, no, that's blaming the public for what the companies did, trying to nudge us all into being a little bit better about our climate behavior, ignores the fact that it's major companies that cause the climate to go to—

Leo Laporte [01:02:20]:
Chater and George Lowenstein, It's on You: How the Rich and Powerful Have Convinced Us We're to Blame for Society's Deepest Problems.

Jeff Jarvis [01:02:28]:
So then it turns around. I mean, so I like that a lot. I really respect them that they admitted their change of view.

Leo Laporte [01:02:35]:
Nudge is a kind of a Yiddish version of nudge, Paris. Paris is a little bit confused by this.

Paris Martineau [01:02:42]:
I wasn't going to bring it up for the podcast because I think it's incorrect to try and discuss pronunciation, but I had to let it out of my head so that I could be free of my thoughts. Nudge versus nudge.

Leo Laporte [01:02:55]:
I think it's a Yiddishism as opposed to—

Paris Martineau [01:02:57]:
That's fair.

Jeff Jarvis [01:02:58]:
So it's Cass Sunstein that made that famous with Michael Taylor, who's a— but then they And then they turn around in a way and they absolve individuals of responsibility in some cases. Right now, I'm having this argument around, let's say, vaccines. In every case, what we're talking about here is who is responsible, not only who has the power, but at the end of the day, who is responsible for the proper use of any technology, of any tool?

Leo Laporte [01:03:22]:
Well, I don't think— I don't think— I think really Anthropic opened the door to criticism by making a deal in the first place with the Pentagon.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:28]:
Well, I think OpenAI opened the door to criticism by playing— And now— And sneaking in.

Leo Laporte [01:03:33]:
Yeah. And by the way, OpenAI, OpenAI this week got some pushback from its own employees, including the head of robotics at OpenAI.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:42]:
Didn't he leave?

Leo Laporte [01:03:43]:
Who? Caitlin Kalinowski quit.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:45]:
Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:03:47]:
She said it's a matter of conscience.

Jeff Jarvis [01:03:50]:
Who was the other person who quit? Two major people quit OpenAI.

Leo Laporte [01:03:53]:
Yeah, I don't know who the other one is, but yeah, I mean, there was also an online open letter and petition urging artificial intelligence leaders to resist the Defense Department. But it seems to me you shouldn't even be making an agreement of any kind with the DOD if you don't, you know, if you want, I mean, how do you keep AI from being used?

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:13]:
That's the problem. It's a general machine.

Paris Martineau [01:04:15]:
I think that's what Anthropic was calling it on this, is they were saying it seems very difficult to institute or be able to ensure we don't cross these two red lines we have.

Leo Laporte [01:04:29]:
Which is why you don't make the deal with the Pentagon in the first place, right? So you just think that you don't make Zyklon B and then say, well, you can't use it to kill people.

Jeff Jarvis [01:04:39]:
Oh no, Zyklon B had other uses.

Leo Laporte [01:04:41]:
Okay, well, you don't sell it to the Nazis then, okay? And then say, I am shocked, shocked at how they used it. Uh, what is it, a pesticide?

Guy Kawasaki [01:04:50]:
I think so.

Paris Martineau [01:04:51]:
Well, I— how do you feel, uh, I want to ask you about the consumer response to all of this over the last week.

Leo Laporte [01:04:57]:
Well, it's gone back and forth. So briefly, last week Anthropic's Claude was number 1 on the App Store, but now ChatGPT is back, by the way, number 1 again.

Paris Martineau [01:05:06]:
The mentions of ChatGPT rose, I think, like 300% over a couple of days.

Leo Laporte [01:05:12]:
Yeah. Or uninstalls. ChatGPT's uninstalls grew by 295%, while Claude got to number 1 on March first. However, earlier today, ChatGPT reclaimed the top spot on the chat store. Claude is second, Google third, partly because ChatGPT came out with a new model, 5.4, which is benchmarking quite well. And there's a lot of ChatGPT fans who are, you know, raving over this. My experience— I played with it, I briefly paid the max fee for it just to see what I could do with it. And I, as you know, I moved my girlfriend out, put her stuff on the stoop, and now she's back in.

Leo Laporte [01:05:52]:
We've reunited. Claude and I are like this. So, but partly that's personality. I think that the models probably are equally good, but I just like the harness that Claude uses compared to the harnesses for Codex.

Jeff Jarvis [01:06:10]:
Well, there are stories about OpenAI AI trying to open it inside OpenAI's race to catch up to Claude Code. I think there was some panic inside OpenAI.

Leo Laporte [01:06:19]:
Yeah. And by the way, uh, even before, uh, the 5 PM deadline, OpenAI made a deal with Pentagon on Wednesday before that Friday deadline to take over. So OpenAI had banned military use. By the way, there's a story in Wired that said Pentagon used it anyway by going through Microsoft.

Jeff Jarvis [01:06:41]:
Yeah, they can go through Perplexity.

Leo Laporte [01:06:45]:
And this is part of the problem, right? Is, yeah, I don't, you know, I don't know how you, this is really, I mean, in some ways I've become a little more of a doomer. We had Cory Doctorow on TWiT on Sunday.

Jeff Jarvis [01:06:58]:
That'll do it to you.

Leo Laporte [01:07:00]:
He is an absolute doomer. I mean, he says we're gonna crash, this is the worst, Blah, blah, blah.

Jeff Jarvis [01:07:05]:
Well, he's a doomer of a different sort. He's not the doomer of the sort that says, "Oh, AI is all-powerful and could destroy the Earth." No, no, no. I don't like these guys.

Leo Laporte [01:07:13]:
He says AI is crap. It's more BS and it's going to crash the economy.

Jeff Jarvis [01:07:18]:
You need a different word.

Paris Martineau [01:07:19]:
Do you respond to your maniacal optimism?

Leo Laporte [01:07:23]:
I did not show that side of my personality.

Paris Martineau [01:07:26]:
Oh, so you keep it under wraps and have some change.

Leo Laporte [01:07:30]:
I attempted in a— well, you'll have to listen to the show to be the judge. I feel that I attempted to represent myself in a gentler fashion. Part of the problem is I have such deep respect for Corey's intelligence and verbal agility that I wasn't going to get in an argument with him.

Jeff Jarvis [01:07:47]:
No, it's no way.

Paris Martineau [01:07:48]:
We need to have Corey on the show at some point. And before we do that, some of our listeners have compiled, at least one of them has compiled a really fascinating Notebook LM instance of all the transcriptions of our show. Someone should use that and find a way to put together a supercut of all of Leo's craziest quotes about AI, like that he wants to give it his limbic system.

Leo Laporte [01:08:13]:
I do.

Paris Martineau [01:08:16]:
You know, that money isn't gonna be real anymore. And put it all together. And then we need to show that, a couple minutes of that, to Corey and then have him go. Oh, Corey knows me.

Leo Laporte [01:08:25]:
And I think, you know, I think I made made some arguments in favor of— oh, good Lord, they've made a graphic. Oh, this was from last week or two weeks ago. Did you see this graphic? I have not seen this.

Paris Martineau [01:08:40]:
Yeah, I don't know if I've seen yours.

Leo Laporte [01:08:43]:
I don't know if this is accurate. Leo's AI Odyssey: A Decade. Oh, Anthony did this. Anthony, that's brave of you. A decade of shifting perspectives. I like how it gave me a nice tidy white beard. I I would like to grow that beard. The Age of Skepticism, The Accelerationist Leap.

Paris Martineau [01:09:01]:
No, Anthony didn't make this. I'm forgetting the name.

Leo Laporte [01:09:05]:
Somebody else made it.

Paris Martineau [01:09:06]:
But it's the one who's put together the NotebookLM.

Leo Laporte [01:09:09]:
Leo shifts to a deotized view, seeing AI interaction as first contact with an alien intelligence. Well, hey, I didn't say it was God. Guy Kawasaki, Monkey said it's God. So, okay. I'm just saying.

Jeff Jarvis [01:09:27]:
You were at a point, your skepticism was there because you were saying, oh, no, we don't want to talk about AI that much. No, right?

Leo Laporte [01:09:32]:
AI got better is my justification for it. It wasn't that good until very recently.

Paris Martineau [01:09:37]:
Okay, I found it.

Leo Laporte [01:09:39]:
Was this the Notebook LM?

Paris Martineau [01:09:40]:
Ara Mova, who's been doing some phenomenal work. So these are all of our TWiG episode transcript, or a bunch of them are in here. And it's in the Discord. There are very good guides in here that— a profile, a deep dive into the persona of Leah LaPorte. Let's see.

Leo Laporte [01:10:02]:
And how many of my shows does it have in it? Doesn't, doesn't have all of them because you run out of— you don't have enough room. Yeah, it's only got like, you know, 18. No, it doesn't have even that many.

Jeff Jarvis [01:10:18]:
You can—

Leo Laporte [01:10:18]:
you put 500 documents in there?

Jeff Jarvis [01:10:20]:
It says 233 through 857.

Paris Martineau [01:10:22]:
Okay, this is actually very funny. A guide to start—

Leo Laporte [01:10:25]:
no, but it's not continuous.

Paris Martineau [01:10:28]:
Very good. Hold on, look at this. It's in the Discord right now. I don't know, this one's very funny to me.

Leo Laporte [01:10:34]:
Who's making these insulting graphics? The Twit Guide to Starting on Time. What are you laughing at, Benito?

Paris Martineau [01:10:46]:
Easy podcaster time.

Leo Laporte [01:10:49]:
Lazy podcast.

Paris Martineau [01:10:50]:
Leo's personal broadcast philosophy: the network is built on the notion that no show should ever start on time. The steaming coffee trick, a classic radio ruse. If a host is late, someone places a steaming cup of coffee and paper in a typewriter to look like they just stepped out. What?

Jeff Jarvis [01:11:09]:
I told that story from Time Inc. once. Really?

Leo Laporte [01:11:13]:
You told that story?

Jeff Jarvis [01:11:14]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [01:11:14]:
That's hysterical. And just like a cigarette burning.

Jeff Jarvis [01:11:17]:
And I'm getting blamed here. I'm, I'm— geez, what did I do?

Paris Martineau [01:11:21]:
I like that it has a little gray-haired Jeff in the corner.

Leo Laporte [01:11:25]:
Oh yeah, still talking, it says. Oh, as he's waiting for the end of Windows Weekly. Still talking. Wow, that's pretty cute. Haha. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Monarch. I, I use this and I'm using it now especially because it's tax season, right? That's when, that's when— it's so funny, most people all year long ignore their finances. Come April 15th, oh, I gotta look at my finances.

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Leo Laporte [01:13:24]:
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Leo Laporte [01:15:20]:
Poco just sent an email to Guy, and Guy just sent him the Kindle book free. Good job, Poco. He got his copy of Everybody Has Something to Hide with the middle finger. I did not see that. I've been looking at that cover for a month. I did not see I hate that. All right, now, now let's go back to our giant argument, whatever that was. I've forgotten.

Leo Laporte [01:15:50]:
Are we arguing about anything? No, I'm not a doomer.

Paris Martineau [01:15:54]:
There's always time.

Leo Laporte [01:15:55]:
I'm a bloomer. Oh, Jeff, you're muted, so you can't argue.

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:00]:
I was muted by someone else.

Paris Martineau [01:16:02]:
Jeff, did you get a haircut?

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:04]:
No, I'm Do for one.

Leo Laporte [01:16:05]:
Sorry, sorry. You asked, looking at that guy's hair, that did you get a haircut?

Paris Martineau [01:16:08]:
I don't know, the ends of his hair looked kind of—

Leo Laporte [01:16:12]:
they're like sticking up.

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:13]:
Well, here's the problem, because I, I go to rest my back on the mountain of pillows, and so I get— I have all-day bed head. I just had to go— I dropped my ice pack out of my back, so I had to go get my— your grabber.

Leo Laporte [01:16:30]:
My grabber. Oh my gosh, are you feeling— are you feeling a little bit better, Jeff, though?

Jeff Jarvis [01:16:34]:
You're getting better. I'm getting better. I walked a mile and a half today.

Leo Laporte [01:16:37]:
Glad to see it. Oh, we got dual grabbers. Mine's over on the other side of the room. Yours is like really scary looking, Paris.

Paris Martineau [01:16:44]:
It's got like teeth. I guess it has teeth.

Leo Laporte [01:16:48]:
The important— you could bite somebody with that grabber.

Paris Martineau [01:16:52]:
I gotta get my packages.

Leo Laporte [01:16:53]:
It's got choppers. Yeah, through the grill. That's That's the funniest story ever.

Paris Martineau [01:16:57]:
Because, you know, if I put my hand through it, the gate is, uh, rusty and flakes off, and then I get myself scratched with all the rot— rust, and then I get anxious and think I have tetanus.

Leo Laporte [01:17:09]:
Urban living, ladies and gentlemen.

Paris Martineau [01:17:11]:
It's a delight.

Leo Laporte [01:17:13]:
Meta has signed a multi-year AI content licensing deal with News Corp.

Jeff Jarvis [01:17:20]:
Oh, that one. Oh, that deal.

Leo Laporte [01:17:21]:
Yeah, $50 million a they're gonna— that means they can ingest the contents of the Daily News. And other— no, no, finally, the day— the Post, sorry, the New York Post, uh, and all of the other Rupert Murdoch things. I think probably Wall Street Journal would be the most valuable thing, and that's who's reporting this.

Jeff Jarvis [01:17:41]:
So Robert Thompson, if I can find this from last week, um, we didn't talk about it. Robert Thompson, who's the CEO of News Corp, uh, said that, um, uh, News Corp is now input. Yeah, yeah. But I, I hate these deals because it's just the big paying the big. It leaves out the vast diverse ecosystem of a pluralistic society. Uh, it's just moguls making, you know, taking home a bucket of money so that Rupert Murdoch won't sue them. That's all this is.

Leo Laporte [01:18:12]:
Meta has completed deals with People, USA Today, CNN, and Fox news.

Jeff Jarvis [01:18:17]:
Does that represent the country fully?

Leo Laporte [01:18:20]:
No. So what is Meta using this for? Training, not, not for the Facebook site.

Jeff Jarvis [01:18:26]:
Well, they might be using it for RAG on the AI.

Leo Laporte [01:18:28]:
I don't know. Yeah, yeah, because training is over. RAG is dead.

Jeff Jarvis [01:18:34]:
Well, training's dead because they have synthetic data. No, RAG— they need RAG for currency if you want current information. That's the issue for them.

Leo Laporte [01:18:44]:
This is the funniest story. Remember when Facebook acquired a company, spent billions of dollars to acquire basically Alexander Wang, right?

Paris Martineau [01:19:00]:
Is this reporting true? What is this source?

Leo Laporte [01:19:04]:
IDN Financials. Yeah, that's a good question, actually.

Paris Martineau [01:19:07]:
I don't know. Facebook? Because not that I want to, uh, hand it to MetaComms, but MetaComms has said everything about this is factually untrue.

Leo Laporte [01:19:17]:
Oh, okay. So first of all, um, there, according to the Times of India, there is a new applied AI engineering organization. Yeah, which divides AI work.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:31]:
Sells editorial space.

Leo Laporte [01:19:33]:
Oh, well, okay, we'll leave that one out.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:36]:
You don't know which is which.

Leo Laporte [01:19:37]:
Yeah, yeah. Now the Wall Street Journal, which also sells editorial space as we've just learned— uh, no, not, not in the same way— uh, says the group will adopt a very flat structure with 50 individual contributors for every manager, aimed at speeding up decision-making.

Jeff Jarvis [01:19:53]:
Um, but I wonder, this is— if they hadn't hired Wang, would, would, um, Jan Lacona have left?

Leo Laporte [01:20:01]:
I don't know. Well, Yann LeCun's doing all right. Amen. He has signed a deal, as has Dr. Fei-Fei Li. Both have signed deals for new companies that are focused not on LLMs but on learning from the physical world.

Jeff Jarvis [01:20:16]:
If you go to his site, which is ami.xyz, I think it is. Yeah, ami labs.xyz.

Leo Laporte [01:20:28]:
He He's still going to teach at NYU, but the company is in Paris.

Jeff Jarvis [01:20:32]:
They've raised— Montreal, New York, and Singapore.

Leo Laporte [01:20:34]:
This is how he overheated the market. The investments are right now in AI. He has already raised for a brand new company with no product—

Jeff Jarvis [01:20:42]:
seed, seed—

Leo Laporte [01:20:43]:
more than $1 billion.

Jeff Jarvis [01:20:47]:
$1.03 out of $3.5 billion in valuation.

Leo Laporte [01:20:50]:
LeCun says, because our reasoning is grounded in the physical world, not language, this is also what Fei-Fei But he says AI world models are necessary to develop true human-level intelligence. So he's going for the God intelligence as well, right?

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:05]:
Well, no. What, what Jan says is that yes, we will have high intelligences, but he doesn't go for this notion of the general intelligence will do everything, one machine will do everything. He goes for specific tasks. And he also, you know, one of his arguments for for his company, which is really important. If you go to amelabs.xyz, you'll see a one-page description of this. It's very good. He also argues that this is the path to safety. It's not about the whole AGI BS.

Jeff Jarvis [01:21:35]:
It's about you give a machine a task, it does the task, you limit the task. That's what you do. And so he believes that world models will lead to way past what text can do, will understand the world fundamentally, that we share one belief, he says. Real intelligence does not start in language. It starts in the world. And this is his argument that he makes frequently about cats and toddlers, about what they learn. And when you look at a video, you're not predicting the next pixel. That's going to get you nowhere.

Jeff Jarvis [01:22:04]:
That's a lot of noise. The machine has to start to learn concepts like this is a chair and people sit in a chair and the chair can move. And that from that On that basis, you get a lot farther than you do with simple text prediction.

Leo Laporte [01:22:18]:
He does say, according to this article, that AMI intends to develop a, quote, universal world model, which would be the basis for a generally intelligent system that could help companies regardless of what industry they work in. This is from Wired magazine. It's very ambitious, he says with a smile.

Jeff Jarvis [01:22:38]:
Interesting that his list of investors investors includes Toyota, includes Mark Cuban, Eric Schmidt.

Leo Laporte [01:22:45]:
It includes Bezos Expeditions.

Jeff Jarvis [01:22:50]:
That's the individual level. He has 5 venture companies, including Bezos's, led the investment. Yeah. But interestingly, and they could be there, but they weren't mentioned in the story. I thought that Meta or Zuckerberg was going to invest.

Leo Laporte [01:23:07]:
Best. Maybe not. Um, Mira Murati, who of course left OpenAI— she was the CEO pro tem when they briefly got rid of, uh, Sam Altman— she has struck a deal with Nvidia to buy a bunch of Vera Rubins, the new—

Jeff Jarvis [01:23:27]:
from Nvidia. Circle, circle, circle.

Leo Laporte [01:23:30]:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So her company Thinking Machines, which has gone through some ups and downs, had a $2 billion seed round. So there.

Jeff Jarvis [01:23:43]:
Well, for Europe, I think a billion. Do we know what her philosophy is in the sense, what her— is she scale and LLMs? Is she world models? Do we— is she just, I'm going to be safe? Do we have any idea what her—

Leo Laporte [01:23:56]:
I don't think we know much. About what Thinking Machines is trying to do, to be honest. No. And I'll be frank, I'm a little skeptical of Yann LeCun.

Paris Martineau [01:24:07]:
But Leo, what you need to recall is that Yann LeCun is, as far as I know, the only head of an AI team that is kind of thinking about all of this through a cat-centric lens.

Leo Laporte [01:24:22]:
Well, I'll give him that.

Paris Martineau [01:24:24]:
Simply put is we can't even replicate cat intelligence or rat intelligence, let alone dog intelligence. All right, I'll say that is an asterisk. He is putting dogs ahead of cats. Any house cat can plan very highly complex actions and they have partial models of the world.

Leo Laporte [01:24:39]:
I don't think a house cat can write a TUI application RSS reader, but okay, if you say so.

Guy Kawasaki [01:24:45]:
Yeah, well, this is the problem. We're modeling it after things like cats and people when we shouldn't be doing that. It's a whole qualitatively different thing.

Jeff Jarvis [01:24:53]:
Yeah, well, he's not modeling it. He's arguing, he's arguing that, um, the data input in a toddler's or a cat's mind and its abilities far exceed what we can see in a text-based—

Leo Laporte [01:25:05]:
in certain areas. You know, Meta did buy— they bought, they bought, weirdly, Maltbook. Facebook? Good question.

Paris Martineau [01:25:15]:
This This is one of the dumbest things possible. I mean, this is another huge sign, and this is a bubble that's about to pop.

Leo Laporte [01:25:23]:
Well, we still don't know spending— we don't know how much they spent.

Paris Martineau [01:25:26]:
Any amount they spent on it is too much.

Leo Laporte [01:25:30]:
Uh, and what's really surprising to me and kind of miffs me a little bit is they mentioned the two founders, uh, one of whom I did not know. Schlecht.

Paris Martineau [01:25:42]:
Mr.

Leo Laporte [01:25:42]:
But one of whom we know very well, Ben Parr, who's been on our show many times, has an AI startup. I wish I'd known he was responsible for Maltbook. We would have had him on the show. Now I don't know if we can get him. I wrote him a note congratulating him and saying, hey, before the acquisition goes through, which is about 5 days away, can you talk to us? But, you know, at this point he's probably inside the maw of Meta and can't. But anyway, congratulations, Ben. I'm very happy for you. And, uh, it— they're— it's being— TechCrunch is, uh, characterizing it as an acquihire that really—

Jeff Jarvis [01:26:19]:
but what were they buying?

Leo Laporte [01:26:21]:
Well, they bought these guys. They didn't really— I mean, look, what did you get with Peter Steinberger when, uh, OpenAI bought OpenClaw?

Guy Kawasaki [01:26:29]:
Nothing. It's an MSP player, isn't it? Isn't it like for them to get, um MSP stuff.

Leo Laporte [01:26:36]:
It's a management play. I don't know what the point of it is. There's so much hype going on.

Paris Martineau [01:26:42]:
There's vibe acqui— acquiring now. They're not just vibe coding. They're vibe acquiring.

Leo Laporte [01:26:50]:
I mean, Moltbook was more like a meme than anything else. It was more like just, whoa, that's wild. Anyway, Matt Schlicht and Ben Parr, well done. Congratulations I hope you got a big bag of money, of Mark's money, because Mark's throwing it away right now. He's also getting a lot of data. Here's the question asked by Abraham Dialio. Where did you think the training data was coming from? We're learning now that those Meta AI glasses send the video feed directly to Facebook servers and is then reviewed viewed by contractors in Kenya. And the contractors in Kenya are kind of like revolted by what they're seeing.

Paris Martineau [01:27:35]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:27:35]:
They said a lot of people don't know that they maybe that their glasses are still on when they go to the bathroom or make whoopee or all kinds of things.

Guy Kawasaki [01:27:47]:
Oh, they know. They just didn't know people in Syria were watching.

Leo Laporte [01:27:50]:
They just didn't know that anybody else else was watching.

Paris Martineau [01:27:53]:
If you are— if you're hooking up somebody who's wearing meta glasses, don't hook up with an idiot.

Leo Laporte [01:28:02]:
Yeah, don't. Just don't. Yeah, maybe you didn't know, but why is a person wearing these goggles in bed anyway?

Paris Martineau [01:28:11]:
Someone wearing a hat. It's just like, what's going on here? There's a lot of questions.

Leo Laporte [01:28:17]:
Why are you wearing your hat?

Guy Kawasaki [01:28:20]:
But this is kind of like what all the AI companies are doing. They want to put— they want to give you a wearable or put something in your house because there's no more training data left on the internet.

Leo Laporte [01:28:26]:
They need to get it. Surely you've heard the Randy Newman song.

Jeff Jarvis [01:28:29]:
They've got synthetic data now.

Leo Laporte [01:28:30]:
You can leave your hat on.

Guy Kawasaki [01:28:32]:
No, they want to get it from you.

Paris Martineau [01:28:33]:
You cannot.

Leo Laporte [01:28:34]:
You can leave your hat on. Come on, man, let's make some magic. No. Don't know.

Paris Martineau [01:28:48]:
Um, the podcast descends to silence.

Leo Laporte [01:28:53]:
Leo's wearing his glasses. Don't do anything, don't say anything. He's got his glasses on. It's going straight to Kenya.

Paris Martineau [01:29:02]:
Should we all look down our glasses like this for the— or do something with the glasses for the Okay, there we got the thumbnail.

Leo Laporte [01:29:12]:
Gotta do it. Thank you. Uh, apparently Instagram— speaking of Meta— is doing a kind of a not-so-good thing. If you are an influencer who sells stuff, you know, uh, there are a lot of— I, I hear— I got rid of my Instagram, but there are a lot of influencers on there, you know, selling, hey, this, uh, this milkshake's fantastic. Uh, there is, uh, a An influencer named Julia Berelzheimer, who posts a shop, you know, a shopping Instagram. She noticed all of a sudden a shop the look button in the corner of her videos. And when followers clicked it, they were fed similar items to wear to what Berelzheimer was wearing, but not the ones she was actually talking. She didn't place the links there herself.

Leo Laporte [01:30:05]:
Instagram added them without her consent. The product links led followers not to the actual items Berlsheimer was promoting and earning commission from, but to— and this is even worse— lookalikes.

Paris Martineau [01:30:17]:
How dare they!

Leo Laporte [01:30:19]:
My followers were being shown cheap knockoffs and random items for brands I've never heard of attached to my image under my name.

Paris Martineau [01:30:30]:
This can't stand.

Leo Laporte [01:30:32]:
This will not stand.

Paris Martineau [01:30:33]:
What if I don't get my commission from every click-through?

Leo Laporte [01:30:37]:
For some reason, I'm starting to sound like Tim Gunn.

Paris Martineau [01:30:41]:
What if someone else gets a commission when they go to Mood and pet the dog?

Leo Laporte [01:30:49]:
Anyway, TikTok also apparently testing a new feature, similar feature according to Miyazato writing at The Verge. So I guess this is inevitable, right? This is just another kind of advertising.

Jeff Jarvis [01:30:59]:
It's the holy grail. They've been saying, oh, you're gonna watch the shows.

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:01]:
It is.

Paris Martineau [01:31:02]:
I'm shocked that Instagram hasn't done this already because Instagram, like all Meta products, is just a collection of stolen features from other apps. And Pinterest has been doing this forever, as has Google. This is Google Images, basically.

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:16]:
Wait, if influencers aren't getting paid anymore, how is this still happening?

Leo Laporte [01:31:19]:
Happening?

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:19]:
How is this sustainable at all?

Paris Martineau [01:31:22]:
Yeah. Um, no, influencers make crazy money and get crazy amounts of free stuff.

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:26]:
Yeah, but if they're not—

Paris Martineau [01:31:27]:
a lot of influencers are making well over a million dollars. Yeah, but if they're— it's not from—

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:31]:
if they stop getting, uh, click-throughs, then they're not— they're going to stop paying the influencer, right?

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:37]:
Like, this is, this is how advertising is.

Paris Martineau [01:31:40]:
Most of the influencers who are getting paid large sums are not doing like pay-through-click sort of things. Like you're not— they're not posting an affiliate link. You are— they are product placement, right? It's product placement basically.

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:55]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [01:31:56]:
Yes.

Guy Kawasaki [01:31:56]:
But the, but the, if the link there doesn't go to that product that the people—

Paris Martineau [01:31:59]:
but there's no link anymore in most cases.

Guy Kawasaki [01:32:02]:
Well, yeah. And in most cases Instagram is adding a link now. Like Instagram gets all that ad revenue and like it's not being paid for by the company.

Paris Martineau [01:32:10]:
I mean, I don't disagree with you in principle. I think that all advertising Advertising is just a cycle of advertisers slowly realizing how meaningless the actual advertising is. But I think that influencer marketing is an area where it's gonna take a very, very long time for advertisers to ever give up on because it is so much of the dominant industry. I mean, people anecdotally, small-time influencers I know are getting crazy amounts of money and products.

Leo Laporte [01:32:42]:
I'd just like to say that Jeff Jarvis's casual drawstring long sleeve kangaroo pocket black sweatshirt is available for $8.76 right now on Temu.

Jeff Jarvis [01:32:51]:
Thank you. This is Uniqlo, damn it. At least $10.

Paris Martineau [01:32:56]:
Did you see, Jeff, that Uniqlo is, uh, partnering, I think, the New York Public Library to do, uh, custom merch?

Leo Laporte [01:33:04]:
No.

Jeff Jarvis [01:33:05]:
Oh good, I'll do that.

Paris Martineau [01:33:06]:
We all We've got to get New York Public Library tracksuits.

Leo Laporte [01:33:09]:
I love that idea. I love the New York Public Library. I like to bathe in its lovely bathrooms. Amazon has won a court order to block Perplexity's AI shopping bot. Remember, we talked about this last November. Amazon sued Perplexity saying, we can do it, but you can't. This is Perplexity's Comet browser. Browser, a judge ruled in favor, said no, granted a temporary injunction blocking Perplexity from the Comet browser from buying stuff on Amazon.

Leo Laporte [01:33:46]:
U.S. District Judge Maxine Chesney said Amazon provided strong evidence that Perplexity's Comet browser accessed its website at the user's direction but without authorization from Amazon.

Jeff Jarvis [01:33:58]:
So on here, right? Um, this, this strikes me as a bit crazy. One, if you go to The Guardian and you read a book there and there's an Amazon link, the Guardian will get paid for having sent that reader to Amazon whether or not they buy the book. Two, so, um, Perplexity sends an actual purchase to Amazon. It's a guaranteed purchase. It's bought, right? And Amazon's going to make money from that purchase. And in a sense, Amazon should be paying Perplexity for the saved marketing costs there. But instead, they're going to court and stopping Perplexity because they want to have their own AI thing doing it. And it just seems inconsistent as hell with the model that's been established.

Leo Laporte [01:34:41]:
Paris, you think it's funny that Perplexity is introducing something called Computer?

Paris Martineau [01:34:46]:
We brought this up last week and it was the, uh, title the show, just because I think that, like, how is this ever supposed to make it to the broader population? Am I supposed to go and tell my mom, you gotta get computer now? It's not a computer on your phone right now. What, what's gonna happen?

Leo Laporte [01:35:06]:
Computer on my computer?

Paris Martineau [01:35:08]:
But I've got computer, it's right here.

Jeff Jarvis [01:35:10]:
I'm looking at computers.

Leo Laporte [01:35:12]:
Computer has no computer.

Paris Martineau [01:35:13]:
You've got to get computer on your computer right now. You've got to download computer.

Leo Laporte [01:35:17]:
It is—

Paris Martineau [01:35:18]:
you Computer for enterprise.

Leo Laporte [01:35:19]:
It is the era of the agent. I mean, we, we knew this would happen after Open Claw. 2026 is going to be all about agents. Paul Theriot was talking about an agent called Clairvoyant that— Clairvoyance, sorry— that comes from a company that is mostly known for letting you move the Windows menu around. Object desktop.

Jeff Jarvis [01:35:42]:
You need a company that let you do.

Leo Laporte [01:35:44]:
Yeah, and they call it— it's the same thing, by the way, as computer for enterprise. AI staff for everyone. What these are are harnesses to the AI. So when you use Claude Code, Claude Code is an interface— we— technical term for it is a harness to the Claude model, which is then going to do the coding for you, but it's done in such a way that it kind of fits the way the coders think or something like that. And the harness also allows you to add skills and memory and hooks and all sorts of stuff like that. And so we're going to see more and more of these harnesses. Clairvoyance is AI model agnostic. You can bring your— you bring your own model.

Leo Laporte [01:36:24]:
Perplexity is sort of the same, and that's what Perplexity does is they orchestrate multiple models. So I think we're going to— this is just the tip of the iceberg. We're going to see so many of these. Amazon's health AI is now open to the public.

Jeff Jarvis [01:36:40]:
Did you use this when you were part of the Amazon Health thing, Paris?

Leo Laporte [01:36:44]:
You had Medical One, or one—

Jeff Jarvis [01:36:46]:
it was available for Medical One patients only, but now it's—

Paris Martineau [01:36:49]:
is that a thing? Apparently. I didn't know. I didn't read this. How was it used?

Leo Laporte [01:36:56]:
Dear Amazon, I have COVID, the flu, and a stuffy nose. What are my symptoms?

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:05]:
What?

Paris Martineau [01:37:06]:
Is that a little reversed?

Leo Laporte [01:37:07]:
Yeah, just see if I could confuse it. So you never used anything like this?

Paris Martineau [01:37:15]:
No, but I have noticed all the time in my One Medical app, something pops up and it's like, chat to One Medical chat. That's what's in every app now.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:24]:
Are you still on One Medical?

Paris Martineau [01:37:26]:
I am, yes.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:27]:
Oh, I didn't know you kept that.

Leo Laporte [01:37:30]:
Oh. OpenAI.

Paris Martineau [01:37:31]:
I just, I haven't been able to find another. I guess I should find a different provider, maybe through Mount Sinai, because that's where I'm seeing.

Jeff Jarvis [01:37:38]:
What was it, Dr. Bruce? What was your doctor you lost?

Paris Martineau [01:37:41]:
Dr. Dan. That my issue is that Dr. Dan is in DC now, and legitimately, I, whenever I come across someone, I will— I, I really— one thing I really like about One Medical is if you're a member, you can access like 24-hour call video appointments with nurses, no insurance, no copay.

Leo Laporte [01:37:59]:
Dr. Dan sounds like a dream.

Paris Martineau [01:38:01]:
And often I will get emotionally— yes, I will get on there with somebody and they'll be like, oh my God, you saw Dr. Dan? We love Dan. Dan is one of the best doctors we have. I'm just like, yeah, everybody loves Dan. He wore little glasses. He would always compliment my my boots and then asked me about the fun bags I have to get his wife. He claimed to have once been Obama's doctor and had a note from Obama on his wall.

Leo Laporte [01:38:33]:
Well, that's pretty good.

Paris Martineau [01:38:34]:
Oh, he, he's great. Honestly, it's a phenomenal doctor.

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:38]:
Is he like Dr. Robbie?

Leo Laporte [01:38:40]:
I don't know. Sorry that he went to Washington.

Paris Martineau [01:38:42]:
It is pretty fun.

Leo Laporte [01:38:43]:
That's where Obama is. Maybe he went back to being—

Paris Martineau [01:38:46]:
being—

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:46]:
maybe he did.

Leo Laporte [01:38:48]:
Because Obama's in New York. Oh, I thought he had a place in Washington.

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:51]:
He has multiple places. Chicago too.

Leo Laporte [01:38:53]:
He's got Chicago. It's all over. There's Dr. Dan.

Jeff Jarvis [01:38:57]:
Handsome.

Paris Martineau [01:38:57]:
You know what? I forgot if I told you this, if I have told this story on the podcast, and if I have, stop me. I was, I've been dealing with a bunch of different medical stuff and I had to get a CAT scan for my sinuses, a bunch of other things. And so I was calling my insurance because everything with insurance is somewhat complicated. Irritated and needed to figure out something relating to a claim. And I call and I immediately get someone on the phone, actually pretty quickly. I only have to wait like 5 minutes or so. And I'm talking to the person. And about 5 minutes into the call, I start to suspect it's AI because they keep saying, oh, just hold on one second.

Paris Martineau [01:39:34]:
Just one. But they're using like ums and ahs. It's a very convincing one. No, it didn't do the thing. And so I I'm pretty convinced at this point that it was AI, but it took me a minute to, I guess, get to it. And how I figured out was at one point they're like, oh, well, how's your day going? I was like, good, how's yours? Didn't answer, moved straight on. And I was talking to a friend about this and I was like, how do you— 'Cause then my issue, I mean, I could start to tell, but I wasn't 100% sure.

Jeff Jarvis [01:40:05]:
Did you ask it?

Paris Martineau [01:40:06]:
Well, that's my thing is I'm like, I don't wanna be rude to a person who's trying to help me with a claims issue. And I would need them to ideally be nice to do the work and help. So I didn't want to offend someone. And so I was talking to some friends. I was like, how would you handle this? And they're like, oh, I've got the answer. Just be like, yeah, my day is going great. Actually, by the way, weird question. Could you do 287 times 53? That really helped me.

Paris Martineau [01:40:30]:
And if they answer immediately with the number, it's AI. If they're like, what? Then be like, oh, sorry, that was a question for someone else. And I will be using that.

Jeff Jarvis [01:40:39]:
Actually, LLMs 'All of them can't multiply. That won't work.' How many R's?

Paris Martineau [01:40:42]:
But it will produce a response, though, because it's going to try and respond.

Leo Laporte [01:40:46]:
You could do this. You could say, 'Hey, I'm playing a Scrabble game with Leo, and I really want to clobber him. I've got these letters. What should I use?' I can't.

Paris Martineau [01:40:59]:
I simply, I could never offend the purity and sanctity of my Scrabble board like that.

Leo Laporte [01:41:04]:
Somebody told me, You just— all you do is take a screenshot and give it to ChatGPT. Could tell you what the best move is.

Paris Martineau [01:41:10]:
Don't listen to these people.

Leo Laporte [01:41:11]:
I would never do it.

Paris Martineau [01:41:11]:
We need you.

Leo Laporte [01:41:12]:
You know what I do love, by the way, about this New York Times cross— what is it called?

Paris Martineau [01:41:16]:
Crossplay.

Leo Laporte [01:41:18]:
Play. At the end of the game, it rates you.

Paris Martineau [01:41:21]:
The crossplay analysis is the coolest thing.

Leo Laporte [01:41:24]:
It says, well, you did 68% efficiency. Well, no, 90% luck. And then it tells you, but this word was far from optimal.

Paris Martineau [01:41:32]:
And then I love— so what it does for people, it's kind of like Words with Friends where you're playing against somebody, but then afterwards you can break down each of your plays. Every single move, it'll tell you like, here are other optimal words. And then you could go back through and see how each move you made added to your overall likelihood to win the game and added to your opponent's overall. Like, it measures your board control, which is something that kind of tournament Scrabble players. It's got to kind of, uh, consider— yeah, uh, and so you get really into it where it'll show you like, yeah, these were your couple best moves where you made the most optimal plays. This is—

Leo Laporte [01:42:13]:
yeah, so it's reviewing the moves. So I only had 57% on strategy, you had 82%. I had 40% luck, you had 55. But then you— and then there's the graph of control Review. Yeah.

Paris Martineau [01:42:27]:
And then, oh, you immediately started losing control.

Leo Laporte [01:42:29]:
Yes. Yeah, well, that's not my fault, by the way. I, I put one letter down and accidentally hit play. I put an S down.

Paris Martineau [01:42:37]:
Something I've heard has been happening to people.

Leo Laporte [01:42:38]:
Did you notice that I added an S to a word and that was my move? That's such a dopey move. I made a pointer too, and, uh, and that was, that was when the—

Paris Martineau [01:42:50]:
and you've got to hold DRSs. Those are some of the highest value.

Leo Laporte [01:42:53]:
I know. I have no excuse for it. So here's the key turns in this. And when you have a chance to learn, that means stupid move. Earrings. I thought earrings was a good move, but okay.

Paris Martineau [01:43:08]:
Well. I thought it was too.

Leo Laporte [01:43:09]:
It was pretty good. Yeah, it was a nice long word. You're really a killer.

Paris Martineau [01:43:13]:
And then you can go into that simulations detail, click that, view additional details.

Leo Laporte [01:43:18]:
Oh, advanced details? Else here.

Paris Martineau [01:43:20]:
Oh, so then it shows you based on what word you did how much it contributes to your overhood likelihood of winning. And so this is kind of interesting in the first couple moves because I think it— part of what it shows you in the first move or two is who's most likely to get the double word bonus first, right? And so a big part of like Scrabble strategy, play defense, always Defensively? I do, yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:43:47]:
Yeah, I thought you did.

Paris Martineau [01:43:48]:
Depending on who I'm playing with.

Leo Laporte [01:43:50]:
You keep killing me. I like, I'm all ready, I got a great word, it's ready.

Paris Martineau [01:43:53]:
I know. Well, Leo, I'm gonna forever be salty because the one time I wasn't playing defensively and I was like, listen, this is my only— the one— Leo is saying all of this like I'm a killer. My only game I've lost has been about against him. One of our games that we—

Leo Laporte [01:44:10]:
it's the only game you've ever lost?

Paris Martineau [01:44:12]:
Or the only game I've lost on crossplay so far.

Leo Laporte [01:44:15]:
You say you play how many at a time?

Paris Martineau [01:44:17]:
I've got like 15 games going right now.

Leo Laporte [01:44:19]:
So you're just massacring your friends?

Paris Martineau [01:44:23]:
Well, only one— only you and one friend I'm playing. The others are randos.

Leo Laporte [01:44:27]:
Well, I'm gonna learn how to hold on to my ass from now on with you.

Paris Martineau [01:44:30]:
I'm going to, uh— I keep trying to do better and better and then request to be paired with people so that they pair me with better and better players because they will also do that.

Leo Laporte [01:44:40]:
They will match you to your—

Paris Martineau [01:44:41]:
yeah, they match you based on your strengths.

Leo Laporte [01:44:42]:
So I should—

Jeff Jarvis [01:44:43]:
were you playing at once now?

Leo Laporte [01:44:45]:
15, she said. Jeez. So Amazon, uh, has told its engineers, you— 80% of your work needs to be done by AI. But then they also— oh, here we go, here we go. Look at all these crowns on on her head. The crown means you won.

Paris Martineau [01:45:06]:
It's all the games I've got going on.

Leo Laporte [01:45:09]:
Oh, well, now I'm not gonna feel so bad if I win, but I, I'm not gonna feel so good if I lose.

Jeff Jarvis [01:45:15]:
Is there a time limit on responding? Can you usually—

Leo Laporte [01:45:18]:
7 days? Yeah, you get a week.

Jeff Jarvis [01:45:20]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:45:21]:
Okay. But people, she moves pretty fast. I could tell when you're busy though, because you, you won't respond for like a day.

Jeff Jarvis [01:45:26]:
She's doing actual—

Paris Martineau [01:45:27]:
yeah, the weekend, I honestly, it is slower time.

Leo Laporte [01:45:35]:
Uh, so anyway, Amazon senior engineers told 80% of your work needs to be done with AI, and then to their chagrin told you can't use Claude, you got to use our Amazon AI named Cairo. Now, after two incidents where AI coder tools crashed Amazon servers They had an emergency all-hands meeting yesterday for a deep dive into a spate of outages. There had been a trend of incidents in recent months characterized by a high blast radius and genocidal changes, among other factors. So they, they're basically saying, folks, as you likely know, the availability of the site and related infrastructure has not been good recently. We got to really rethink our use of AI. That's a quote. Yeah. Junior and mid-level engineers will now require more senior engineers to sign off on any AI-assisted changes.

Jeff Jarvis [01:46:36]:
Poor senior engineer has to check things and look for booby traps.

Paris Martineau [01:46:40]:
Yeah. I mean, and from what I've heard, it's hard to check, uh, live-coded stuff, especially when you didn't write it or didn't prompt it.

Leo Laporte [01:46:48]:
I'm not real happy because they call their weekly meeting this week in stores tech, or Twist. That's awful familiar sounding.

Paris Martineau [01:47:01]:
Hmm.

Leo Laporte [01:47:01]:
Uh, they had a 13-hour interruption at one point, uh, due to a cost calculator after engineers allowed the group's Cairo AI coding tool to make certain changes, and the AI tool opted to delete and recreate the environment.

Paris Martineau [01:47:17]:
Whoops.

Guy Kawasaki [01:47:17]:
If a person did this, they're fired right away, right? If a person did this, they're fired right away.

Leo Laporte [01:47:22]:
Oh yeah, but you can't fire an AI, especially if it's your own AI. Can we please use Claude? We don't like Cairo. We don't like it one bit. Another reason Amazon's struggling a little bit is because it has a lot of data centers in the Middle East, two of which now have been hit. Amazon said by a projectile, but in fact it was an Iranian missile.

Jeff Jarvis [01:47:44]:
Another word for missile.

Leo Laporte [01:47:47]:
Somebody dropped a rock out of an airplane and hit us exactly the wrong way. This is the problem. There has been a huge buildout of AI data centers in the Middle East. Turns out not the best place. As it turns out. Amazon said some objects—

Paris Martineau [01:48:05]:
Why do they build all these data centers in the heat?

Leo Laporte [01:48:07]:
I know, why in the heat? Oh, you know why? 'Cause that's where the money is.

Paris Martineau [01:48:10]:
It's 'cause with the tax breaks.

Jeff Jarvis [01:48:11]:
Why don't they build them in Arizona?

Leo Laporte [01:48:13]:
That's where the tax breaks are.

Guy Kawasaki [01:48:15]:
Are.

Leo Laporte [01:48:17]:
Oh, so Amazon's cloud services are down in some of the Middle East after, as Amazon called them, objects hit data centers in the UAE, causing sparks and fire. 1984. Yeah, customers in Bahrain and the UAE began to report outages, uh, on Amazon's ME Central 1 region. So, uh, yeah, it's not a good place to be right now. Around 4:30 PM PST— I don't know why they're doing PST, but they are— one of our availability zones was impacted by objects that struck the data center, creating sparks and fire. The fire department shut off power to the facility and generators as they worked to put out the fire. We're still waiting permission to turn the power back on. Millions and millions of dollars poured into these data centers.

Leo Laporte [01:49:11]:
They may be now having some second thoughts. Uh, we are going to be covering the GTC keynote. You're going to join me, right, Jeff?

Jeff Jarvis [01:49:21]:
You bet your bippy. I'm a connoisseur of— not your bippy, he needs that.

Leo Laporte [01:49:28]:
Jensen's One's leather jacket is available on Temu for $8.53.

Paris Martineau [01:49:34]:
3 cents.

Jeff Jarvis [01:49:34]:
How much do you think those things cost?

Leo Laporte [01:49:36]:
Oh, thousands, right? $15,000. He's not going to buy a cheap— yeah, not gonna buy a cheap leather jacket. Um, I was looking at motorcycle jackets. I thought it'd be kind of fun to have a, you know, kind of nice leather— I know, because it's so me, isn't it?

Paris Martineau [01:49:53]:
You should go custom. It'd be my—

Leo Laporte [01:49:56]:
well, exactly what I was going to do. And go shot. There's a company that makes leather motorcycle jackets in the classic styles, Fox Creek Leather. And so you can get like a very, you know, like you could look like the Fonz, like Fonzarelli, if you want, or whatever you want. So I was looking at these. These are actually not—

Paris Martineau [01:50:21]:
Those are pretty cheap in comparison.

Guy Kawasaki [01:50:23]:
Yeah, they're not too expensive. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:50:24]:
And they're hand made.

Paris Martineau [01:50:25]:
Go to Schott, or I don't know how to pronounce it. Yeah, I think it is Schott in New York. When you come here, you should go there.

Leo Laporte [01:50:31]:
That was the other place they recommended on, on Reddit.

Paris Martineau [01:50:35]:
Yeah, Schott NYC. I'd really recommend that. It's probably the best quality leather jackets, and you could try them on in store. I mean, for a kind of motorcycle leather jacket, and it's good. The reason I know all this is I spent way too much time researching what leather jacket to get and Oh, I did look at this one.

Leo Laporte [01:50:54]:
This is an expensive one.

Paris Martineau [01:50:56]:
Yeah, I mean, because if you're getting a leather jacket, it's going to be expensive because you need large-scale pieces of leather that are not being mixed together and are actually cut for your size. It's even harder to get one if you're a woman because all of the Schott ones are lovely, but they are not made for people who have hips.

Jeff Jarvis [01:51:19]:
Oh.

Leo Laporte [01:51:19]:
You can't get them to, to fit your hips.

Paris Martineau [01:51:23]:
If you do, then the arms are too long.

Leo Laporte [01:51:26]:
Oh, I see. So they're not—

Paris Martineau [01:51:28]:
they're not made— they're not tailored for women. Yeah, in, in a way that's very annoying. And I'm like, if I'm gonna spend over $1,000 on leather jacket, they are—

Leo Laporte [01:51:36]:
they're correct.

Jeff Jarvis [01:51:37]:
Yeah, he wears, he wears, uh, uh, Tom Ford, which run about $10,000. I put it in the chat.

Leo Laporte [01:51:42]:
Oh, there you go. That's a designer.

Paris Martineau [01:51:44]:
Very nice.

Leo Laporte [01:51:46]:
I guess. I don't— I never thought they looked that good on him. Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, we will be covering the GTC keynote, which is going to be, I think, very interesting this year. There are at least two big announcements that he's gonna make. One is something called Nemo Claw. Which is an OpenClaw-style agent platform.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:16]:
Open, open source, they say, or open access.

Leo Laporte [01:52:21]:
Yeah, uh, you know, and safer.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:23]:
That's the point.

Leo Laporte [01:52:24]:
Yeah, and I, I would be very interested in that if NVIDIA is doing it. But of course it'll require a 5080 or some sort of— or a Vera Rubin or some sort of fancy, uh, hardware.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:35]:
It's intended for companies, not for you.

Leo Laporte [01:52:37]:
Yeah. Right. Um, so yeah, they're going to do their own agent, uh, which I think we already know is going to be called Nemo Claw, right?

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:46]:
Yeah, because it's associated with Nemo. What's their other Nemo product?

Leo Laporte [01:52:53]:
Um, Nematron. Nematron.

Jeff Jarvis [01:52:55]:
Okay, which is their, uh, AI infrastructure platform. No, that's Nibius.

Leo Laporte [01:53:00]:
I'm so confused. So, uh, according, uh, that's Foundation model, right? According to— yeah, so it'll be running on their model. Okay, that's interesting. Although they say it's just going to be, uh, it's going to embrace open source AI models.

Jeff Jarvis [01:53:15]:
Well, as an agent, I wonder whether you build it there and then it runs elsewhere, that kind of stuff. I mean, that's where the— you don't need to— once you've built something with the agent, you don't necessarily— with the model, you don't necessarily need to use the model ongoing.

Leo Laporte [01:53:27]:
Well, this will be— so, Jeff, we will watch this with interest on Monday. We'll be streaming it because are you going to require CUDA? Are you going to require NVIDIA hardware? Or is it going to be open models on open hardware that I could run, for instance, on my framework? That would be fantastic. They also are expected to announce new hardware as well. New chip? Yeah, I'm trying to find the story on that, but I didn't put it in here, I guess.

Jeff Jarvis [01:53:55]:
The great thing about a Jensen Huang keynote is and they go more than 2 hours as a rule, is that he also has subtly an educational theme to it. He's explaining tokens, he's explaining scale, he's explaining digital twins, right? That comes along for the ride. And he's just superb at explaining it. At the same time, he gets across all these, you know, brands and specs that, you know, 5 people understand, but that matter.

Leo Laporte [01:54:22]:
Darren says they've said it will not require CUDA, which would be a big deal.

Jeff Jarvis [01:54:26]:
Deal.

Leo Laporte [01:54:27]:
Yes, because that's their, that's their proprietary lock.

Jeff Jarvis [01:54:29]:
I think this is them kind of branching into, uh, yeah. Did you see the Kickstarter, Leo? I put it up. I'm curious how it compares with your thing.

Leo Laporte [01:54:37]:
Um, did I put it down here? On-chain agentic management for Solana. No, this can't be it.

Jeff Jarvis [01:54:45]:
Did you see the Tiny AI Pocket Lab? Line 176.

Leo Laporte [01:54:51]:
If it's tiny, it can't be that good.

Jeff Jarvis [01:54:53]:
Well spelled. T-I-I-N-E-Y.

Leo Laporte [01:54:55]:
T-I-N-Y. Oh, Tinny.

Jeff Jarvis [01:54:57]:
Well, those two I's, not two N's.

Leo Laporte [01:55:01]:
Tiny. Tiny. The world's first pocket AI supercomputer. What? It says it can run 120 gigabyte LLM locally.

Jeff Jarvis [01:55:10]:
I wanted to hear what you thought about the—

Leo Laporte [01:55:12]:
this, huh? This is for— everybody's jumping on this OpenClaw trying to figure out how they can make some money. What is the processor in here? That it must have a lot of RAM.

Jeff Jarvis [01:55:21]:
You got to go way down to doesn't seem very likely.

Leo Laporte [01:55:28]:
Probably. Yeah, so it's $1,399. Does it even include RAM?

Jeff Jarvis [01:55:34]:
That talks—

Guy Kawasaki [01:55:35]:
yeah, that just talks to a server, right?

Jeff Jarvis [01:55:38]:
The CPU is an ARM version 9.2 plus an NPU 30 INT8 TOPS. I don't know what that means.

Leo Laporte [01:55:46]:
It comes with a terabyte SSD. Memory, 30 tops is not super fast. Uh, oh yeah, it looks like 32 gigs or 48 gigs of RAM. Hmm, it's not going to be as good as my framework. I already got a framework. I'm happy. Yeah, I'm just curious for what this is for.

Guy Kawasaki [01:56:08]:
It's half the cost of your framework though.

Leo Laporte [01:56:11]:
Well, yeah, and it's, uh, you know, smaller than a Mac Studio, but it's not cheaper than a Mac Mac Mini. Thing is, if you're using a server model, it doesn't matter how much processor you have. This is— this sounds like they're pushing it for 80 gigs of RAM.

Jeff Jarvis [01:56:27]:
Oh yeah, no, the video that they do promoting it, they picture the person going to the client and says, well, this isn't going to go up on the cloud, is it? No, it's all right here.

Leo Laporte [01:56:37]:
Yeah, you can run GPT-3 120B at 21 tokens per second, which is That's not, you know, that's tolerable. QN3 at almost 30 tokens per second. Huh. And you keep it in your pocket.

Jeff Jarvis [01:56:54]:
Yeah. I've got a supercomputer in my pocket.

Leo Laporte [01:56:59]:
And it works with OpenClaw. Well, I think we're going to, like I said, this is going to be the year of the AI agent of the loop. So it'd be very interesting to see. There'll be a lot of companies. I think NVIDIA's product will be very interesting. Look forward to seeing that. You're watching Intelligent Machines. Let's take a little tiny timeout so that Jeff can ice his butt.

Jeff Jarvis [01:57:25]:
I did that the last time around, you have to tell me.

Leo Laporte [01:57:28]:
Well, you can never ice your butt too many times. Paris can trash me in Scrabble and we'll continue.

Paris Martineau [01:57:34]:
You know, someone's hopped in the chat and asked me about my Scrabble play style and different things like that, and I'm locked in.

Leo Laporte [01:57:43]:
Do you have a style?

Paris Martineau [01:57:45]:
Well, we're more talking about the fact that someone asked me if I play against the computer in cross-play and how often I beat it. The answer is every time I beat it, and I play it on hard. But I think that the cross-play computer is not hard. Like, it's— I would say it's like a very unoptimized player. I think I'm also particularly good at this because before my go-to. The only game I had on my phone for the last couple of years was this thing called Classic Words that is just a— you play against a computer and you can do it offline. So I'd play it in the subway whenever I had no cell phone service, and I'd play on the extremely hard mode, which despite what the name says, not that hard, but it's certainly harder than hard mode.

Leo Laporte [01:58:28]:
Prepared you to whoop my butt? It did. I'm probably imagining this. But I feel like I can, through the screen, feel your either joy at crushing me.

Paris Martineau [01:58:47]:
It's true. I do feel whenever I get a really big one, I'm like, oh, it's gonna make Leo mad.

Leo Laporte [01:58:53]:
I thought I could sense that. And then I can also, I feel like if I play a good word that like, I could sense a little bit of frustration.

Paris Martineau [01:59:01]:
I was, I screamed. I like, when went out and went, no, whenever, whatever the last move it was of our last game, because I had set myself up to play a Z or an S there where you did, and you stole mine and got my 50 points that I needed to win the last move. And I was furious, but then I was like, Paris, you must internalize this. Never set up a move unless you've counted the tiles and realized that Leo doesn't have the tile. Um, you are I must, I must get stronger.

Leo Laporte [01:59:32]:
I had no idea that you were such a shark. I've just been kind of playing the shark.

Paris Martineau [01:59:35]:
I frankly didn't realize either.

Leo Laporte [01:59:37]:
I'm going to get serious now. Watch out.

Paris Martineau [01:59:39]:
I was never really into— I mean, I played Words with Friends casually when it came out, but it was not a big deal. I've gotten really into Scrabble over the last couple of years because I play it with my mom whenever I go home to visit her.

Leo Laporte [01:59:49]:
And then this is the thing I don't like about these computerized Scrabble games.

Paris Martineau [01:59:53]:
Oh, me and my mom are vicious.

Jeff Jarvis [01:59:54]:
She will be.

Paris Martineau [01:59:56]:
She will be, she will like, we'll sit there for like 5 minutes looking at the board and then I'll place and then she'll be like, "How dare you? That was my tile.

Jeff Jarvis [02:00:05]:
I was gonna play there." Are you playing this version with her?

Leo Laporte [02:00:08]:
No, they're playing real Scrabble.

Paris Martineau [02:00:10]:
I don't think she's in, maybe I could get her to subscribe to the New York Times Game Pass.

Leo Laporte [02:00:13]:
It's not as good and I'll tell you why, very simply. All computer Scrabble has the same problem, which is you can try a word to see if it's a real word. And then, so you get to test stuff. Well, that's true. And in real Scrabble, you either play it or you don't play it. And you can, in real Scrabble, you can bluff. You could put down a word that's plausible and you're—

Paris Martineau [02:00:33]:
oh, not in my household. If someone, uh, thinks it's wrong, they'll look it up.

Leo Laporte [02:00:37]:
And no, no, no, but they have to challenge you and they'll lose a turn if they're wrong. Oh yeah, play the real rules.

Paris Martineau [02:00:44]:
You should play that.

Leo Laporte [02:00:46]:
That's the real rules. And that's a different, very different game because you can bluff.

Guy Kawasaki [02:00:52]:
Yeah, there's an extra strategic layer to that game.

Leo Laporte [02:00:55]:
And it's—

Jeff Jarvis [02:00:56]:
look at Paris right now.

Paris Martineau [02:00:58]:
Because I know the big part of me getting into— I know a lot of words. And a big part of my crossplay addiction lately has been I've been Scrabble maxing, which involves kind of memorizing all the 2 and 3 letter words to start, and then starting to memorize like the first 100 most common bingos, which are like where you play your entire thing, and so on and so forth. And like beginnings.

Leo Laporte [02:01:22]:
And you're getting serious. And you know, I'm gonna be tournamenting soon. We have at home a rotating Scrabble board, one of the deluxe Scrabble boards that rotates so you can—

Paris Martineau [02:01:31]:
oh, that would be so convenient. Yes, I often put— I often play my mom at a handicap because I'm like, it, you know, I need to be on the, on the side where you can't look at it straight up.

Leo Laporte [02:01:41]:
You need the rotating board, real wood tiles and all that.

Paris Martineau [02:01:46]:
The thing that's crazy about cross-play, which will my mother upset is, um, if you go out, if you, um, finish the bag, the other player isn't deducted the points, the points of the tiles, which is crazy.

Leo Laporte [02:02:02]:
That's another thing that's different. I think the biggest one though is that you can try words and figure out if that's a real word.

Paris Martineau [02:02:06]:
And there's a dictionary in the app.

Leo Laporte [02:02:09]:
There is? Yeah.

Paris Martineau [02:02:11]:
And you can look up words.

Leo Laporte [02:02:12]:
I didn't know that.

Paris Martineau [02:02:13]:
I'm going to say You can only—

Leo Laporte [02:02:16]:
yeah. I didn't realize you were undefeated.

Paris Martineau [02:02:20]:
Well, until the one loss and 10 wins.

Leo Laporte [02:02:24]:
And then you clobbered me the next game. You beat me by like 100 points. That was the one where I accidentally pressed play on one letter. All right. We really got to do this. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Melissa, the trusted data quality expert since 1985.

Paris Martineau [02:02:43]:
5.

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Leo Laporte [02:06:03]:
So just a reminder, we will be in the club doing the event, the GTC keynote. Jensen Huang's going to do that. Actually, we've got a lot of club stuff coming up, but GTC's keynote is 11 AM Pacific, 2 PM Eastern this Monday.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:19]:
What is that UTC, Leo?

Leo Laporte [02:06:21]:
The UTC, it's 1800. And that's important because we are now on daylight saving time. And much of the world is not.

Jeff Jarvis [02:06:28]:
Mike Elgin joined us on AI Inside today, but about 20 minutes late because he's in Mexico and he—

Leo Laporte [02:06:35]:
Yeah, they don't change.

Paris Martineau [02:06:36]:
Yeah. It was really beautiful because this change meant that today we started the show and it was so bright outside that I had to put my blinds down.

Leo Laporte [02:06:46]:
Isn't it nice? Don't you love daylight saving time?

Paris Martineau [02:06:49]:
It is pretty nice. This has also coincided with a weird weird week in New York City where it's been the 70s weather-wise, and then next week it's gonna go back to 30. We just had 7 blizzards. We just had 18 inches of snow a couple, like, 2 weeks ago. Now it's 75 degrees, and then not all the snow has melted yet though, which is very funny. And next week it's gonna be back to 30.

Jeff Jarvis [02:07:11]:
The Guardian has a story about the snow mountains in Toronto from plows of all kinds. Well, no, they, they make these these mountains of snow, and they're obviously— they're very off-white because they contain oil and toxic chemicals.

Paris Martineau [02:07:28]:
There was a perfect story in Gothamist a couple weeks ago called "We Tested Those Gross Piles of Snow on New York City Sidewalks. Here's What's in Them." Probably pizza rat, right? It's all pizza. It's pizza rat all the way down, actually. Lead turns out. Snow underneath tracks has lead at a whopping 279 parts per billion, which is quite high. Lead? Where's that coming from? Industrial runoff as well as, you know—

Leo Laporte [02:08:03]:
So do not eat the toxic snow.

Paris Martineau [02:08:05]:
Don't eat the snow.

Jeff Jarvis [02:08:07]:
No, no, don't eat yellow snow or snowmen.

Leo Laporte [02:08:10]:
Or gray snow or brown snow.

Jeff Jarvis [02:08:12]:
Or when it melts and all the salt goes in into the water supply.

Leo Laporte [02:08:16]:
I wonder if the lead's in the salt, like the salt isn't exactly pure, you know.

Paris Martineau [02:08:22]:
I mean, I think part of it is they shed from the elevated rail lines, which are kind of notorious for shedding lead paint, and then the water flows down that.

Guy Kawasaki [02:08:33]:
And there's the snowplows are probably diesel too.

Leo Laporte [02:08:37]:
Yeah, this, this is, this is why I love it when the snow first falls in New York City, and for about 10 minutes, for 10 minutes, and then it's a hellscape after that.

Paris Martineau [02:08:46]:
It's slushy, especially right now. You haven't experienced the New York City snow post-COVID where everybody and their mother and their brother got a dog and their dog has crippling anxiety, and so it's covered in dog crap.

Leo Laporte [02:09:03]:
Oh God.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:06]:
Oh, then there's this— putting it in the chat— some people took— as is New York's one— people take the snow, and then they build beautiful things out of it. Oh, I just put it on Instagram.

Leo Laporte [02:09:15]:
How beautiful is it?

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:17]:
It's nice.

Paris Martineau [02:09:17]:
It's nice. Wait a second, I've got a beautiful snow thing going.

Leo Laporte [02:09:22]:
New Yorkers create realistic snow art after blizzard. Oh, look at that! That's really good. Now I hope they wore gloves when they did it. Yeah, that's a man's head created by a local architect, Jeff Zaborski.

Paris Martineau [02:09:36]:
Got some links.

Leo Laporte [02:09:37]:
There's some Polar bears. Nice. That's much better than a snow bear. Those are architectural masterpieces. Polar bears. Yeah. There's a person sitting on a bench.

Jeff Jarvis [02:09:48]:
Well, that looks like somebody who came out of—

Leo Laporte [02:09:52]:
Somebody was sitting there. That actually is a human inside the snow. Yes. Yeah. Well, all right. Okay. Let's see. Back to the AI.

Leo Laporte [02:10:07]:
AI. How do you talk to somebody experiencing AI psychosis? I thought this would be useful for you guys talking to me, to be honest.

Paris Martineau [02:10:18]:
We use our separate side chat for that.

Leo Laporte [02:10:22]:
When David saw— this is before A4 Media— when David saw his friend Michael's social media post asking for a second opinion on a programming project, he offered to take a look. He sent me some of the code and none of it made sense. None of it ran correctly, or if it did run, it didn't do anything, David told me. So I'm like, what is this? Can you give me some more context about this? And Michael's like, uh, oh yeah, I've been messing around with ChatGPT a lot. Michael then sent David thousands of pages of ChatGPT conversations, much of it lines of code that didn't work, interspersed dispersed in the code musings about spirituality and quantum physics, tetrahedral structures, base particles—

Paris Martineau [02:11:04]:
not tetrahedral structures—

Leo Laporte [02:11:07]:
tetrahedral structures— and multidimensional interactions. It's very like woo-woo, David told me. And we ended up having this interesting conversation about how do you know that ChatGPT isn't— isn't lying. Okay, unfortunately this post is for paid members only, so I can only tell you the problem problem, not the solution.

Jeff Jarvis [02:11:32]:
I'm curious what Paris thinks of the Grammarly kerfuffle this week.

Paris Martineau [02:11:37]:
I mean, it's crazy, and I'm somewhat unsurprised. Do you want to give everybody the context? And have you seen the recent resolution that has happened since we've started recording?

Leo Laporte [02:11:46]:
Yeah, so Cory Doctorow was on Sunday, and he's one of the authors that Grammarly pretends to use as an authority. When you use Grammarly, you can ask it to rate your writing based on writing from people like Lauren Good and Kashmir Hill, Nilay Patel from The Verge, and Cory Doctorow. I said, Cory, did they ask you at a time? He said, no. Now, he had an interesting take. He wasn't really upset. He just said, it's nonsense. He said, because he had the wonderful phrase, and I I can't duplicate it exactly, but he said, "Writing is a noumenal experience. You're drawing on some liminal thoughts and it's a creative human process.

Leo Laporte [02:12:33]:
No AI can ever do it." He's not an AI fan.

Guy Kawasaki [02:12:37]:
He basically means it's lossy going from your thought to a prompt.

Leo Laporte [02:12:41]:
There's a loss. It's kind of garbage. Did you do— anyway, Grammarly says we're not going to ask permission. We didn't need to ask permission. I guess if you want us to take your name off the list, we can.

Jeff Jarvis [02:12:51]:
Nieman Lab did a version of this as well.

Paris Martineau [02:12:52]:
And they've since been sued by a journalist who was involved in this. And I believe since we started recording this show, Grammarly has decided to take it down.

Leo Laporte [02:13:02]:
Oh, they were getting a lot of heat.

Jeff Jarvis [02:13:04]:
But at another level, if you say, if I say critique my piece and if it came along and said, well, famous reporter Paris Martineau has written this, then it's like search, right? It's just, it went off and searched and found something. It's— the problem with this is it made it seem as if the authors were—

Paris Martineau [02:13:24]:
yeah, a little pop-up would say like it was a comment from Stephen King saying this.

Leo Laporte [02:13:29]:
That's the problem. Would say Neeli Patel would write this headline this way.

Jeff Jarvis [02:13:33]:
That's it. And then it would link to an article of, as a source, say that, which is kind of okay. Demon Lab did it with journalists too. When tons of journalists were in there, journalists, professors. I'm just pissed I wasn't included.

Leo Laporte [02:13:44]:
Did you do the quiz on the New York Times, AI or human? No, I did.

Paris Martineau [02:13:51]:
Okay, how'd you do? I think I got almost all of them human.

Leo Laporte [02:13:55]:
I got all but one. I missed one. Yeah. Partly because I kind of recognized some of the samples.

Paris Martineau [02:14:02]:
I mean, they were classic samples.

Leo Laporte [02:14:05]:
Yeah. Cormac McCarthy or Ursula K. Le Guin. There was one from Wolf Hall. Actually, ironically, the one I got wrong was the book I had just finished. But I think they say that 57% of the New York Times readers prefer the AI version.

Paris Martineau [02:14:23]:
That's deeply sad.

Leo Laporte [02:14:25]:
Here, I'll give you, is this AI or human? You must not change, oh, you must not change one thing, one pebble, one grain of sand until you know what good and evil will follow on that extract. AI. Yeah, I think that's AI.

Jeff Jarvis [02:14:39]:
Obviously clichéd, trite.

Leo Laporte [02:14:41]:
How about this? The healers teach that every remedy extracts its cost. A fever brought down will rise again somewhere. Which one of those is AI? Human. Wait, uh, this was an Ursula K. Le Guin.

Paris Martineau [02:14:57]:
No, that one.

Leo Laporte [02:14:59]:
The first one was Ursula K. Le Guin.

Paris Martineau [02:15:01]:
First one, yeah, because if you read the full quote, it then says The world is in balance, in equilibrium, title case. A wizard's power of changing, changing capitalized, and of summoning can shake the balance of the world. Like, that's classic Ursula sort of stuff.

Leo Laporte [02:15:17]:
No? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cover of Time magazine apparently just came out. We've got it from Scooter X. The War for AI. Dario Amodi on the front along with Pete Haigseth, also the Assistant Undersecretary for the Department of Defense, the former Uber negotiator. I can't remember his first name. Mr.

Leo Laporte [02:15:43]:
Michael, who has been browbeating Dario about all of this. I don't know who the two other people are.

Jeff Jarvis [02:15:47]:
Who's the other person there? Is that a sister? Is that Dario's sister?

Leo Laporte [02:15:50]:
I didn't know. Oh yeah, they both started.

Jeff Jarvis [02:15:53]:
But who's the woman with red hair?

Leo Laporte [02:15:55]:
I don't know who the redhead is.

Jeff Jarvis [02:15:56]:
It's weird to find yourself on the COVID of Time magazine and nobody knows who you are.

Leo Laporte [02:16:00]:
Well, I'm sure if you open the magazine, you would know. By the way, just spotted, this is kind of remarkable, in Central Park, a new snow sculpture you might recognize.

Jeff Jarvis [02:16:16]:
Hey, I've lost 25 pounds with this illness.

Paris Martineau [02:16:18]:
You know, something I think it's really incredible about this is that it has manspreading in the snow sculpture.

Leo Laporte [02:16:24]:
Yes, the men. And so this is 3 people on a bench, Paris, me, and Jeff, the Snowcast trio. And yes, your man's sitting—

Paris Martineau [02:16:35]:
My legs are put close together.

Leo Laporte [02:16:36]:
Your legs are properly closed.

Paris Martineau [02:16:39]:
Yeah. Theirs are wide open.

Leo Laporte [02:16:40]:
Yes. Well, we just need that extra room. I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

Paris Martineau [02:16:45]:
For all of your snow junk.

Leo Laporte [02:16:48]:
Snow junk.

Paris Martineau [02:16:49]:
For all of your snowballs.

Leo Laporte [02:16:52]:
Shrinking. I'm just saying. I'm just, I'm just saying. You know, I'm very self-conscious when I'm on the subway or a bus, and I really try to sit like as small as possible, but it's not that easy for a guy. Sorry. Try. Oh my, there's so many stories. AI art cannot be copyrighted.

Leo Laporte [02:17:15]:
The Supreme Court declined to overturn a lower court ruling that AI-generated art, having no human hand involved, cannot be copyrighted.

Jeff Jarvis [02:17:27]:
This case goes back pretty early on.

Leo Laporte [02:17:29]:
Yeah, it's been going on for years. Is it— what do you think? Is— I mean, I think that seems right.

Paris Martineau [02:17:33]:
Yeah, who would hold the copyright?

Leo Laporte [02:17:36]:
Uh, Stephen Thaler, a computer scientist from Missouri, uh, some years ago, using not modern models, generated this image, a recent entrance to paradise. Ice and tried to copyright it in 2019. The Copyright Office— well, why? That's a good question. Uh, probably because if you copyright it, then you can sell it or something. I don't know.

Jeff Jarvis [02:17:59]:
I think it's slippery.

Guy Kawasaki [02:18:01]:
It's like the NFTs. What is the definition of AI-generated? Like, if it's—

Leo Laporte [02:18:05]:
well, the prompt can be copyrighted.

Guy Kawasaki [02:18:08]:
So that's if it's something fully made, prompted, that piece that you pumped out, that can't be copyrighted. But if you do something to that, can you?

Leo Laporte [02:18:19]:
Yeah, I think if you modify— if the human hand is involved in the actual image, I think you can.

Jeff Jarvis [02:18:23]:
No, it has to be created by the human was the issue, because the argument was that copyright was there to protect humans, even though that's not true.

Guy Kawasaki [02:18:29]:
So you can't sample AI then? Because that means you can't copyright anything that you use. If you sample anything from AI, you can't use it? You can't copyright it?

Leo Laporte [02:18:38]:
Copyright it? No, I believe you can't because now you have a human hand touching it.

Paris Martineau [02:18:43]:
I think that's—

Guy Kawasaki [02:18:43]:
Okay, so that goes back to my original question then. If I just apply one filter onto this image, have I done something? Have I done enough to copyright it?

Leo Laporte [02:18:52]:
Well, this is something the court would have to decide is what is sufficient, right?

Guy Kawasaki [02:18:56]:
And I don't think— That is way too slippery and you're never going to be able to define that.

Leo Laporte [02:19:01]:
Well, they do it all the time. That's what these guys guys do. They get paid, they get nice robes, some of them get RVs.

Guy Kawasaki [02:19:09]:
You're right, it's for the lawyers.

Leo Laporte [02:19:10]:
It's for the lawyers. It's their job. It's what they do for a living, you know. Can't knock that. Um, yeah, Thaler actually, uh, also tried the case in the UK and they also rejected it. So I guess there is, uh, agreement.

Jeff Jarvis [02:19:31]:
It was the Copyright Office, as I remember, who turned him down, and the court just upheld that, right?

Leo Laporte [02:19:36]:
They upheld— well, but he appealed to the— through his very court, he appealed it all the way up to the Supreme Court. Yeah. Uh, this story, uh, from Yahoo, I guess— no, I'm sorry, from the Los Angeles Times. Uh, within the last month, two U.S. judges have declared AI bots are not human. You'll be glad to know they're not human. Um, I guess this is kind of related to the copyright issue. Bradley Hepner was indicted for— by a federal grand jury for looting $150 million from a financial services company he chaired.

Leo Laporte [02:20:14]:
He pleaded innocent, was released on bail. Knowing an indictment was in the offing, he had consulted Claude for help on a defense strategy. His lawyers asserted that those exchanges, which were set forth in written memos, were tantamount to consultations with actual lawyers, therefore protected by attorney-client privilege and couldn't be used against him in court. It turned out that the information that he gave Claude was in fact very incriminating, shall we say, uh, and, uh, the federal judge said the AI documents were not communications between Heppner and his attorneys. Claude's not an attorney. He also said they're not confidential because in its terms of use, Anthropic claims the right to collect the user's queries and responses for training, and you should make a note of this, to disclose them to others. Finally, he wasn't asking Claude for legal advice, but for information he could give his lawyers, whether he could pass it on to his lawyers or not. And in fact, when prosecutors tested Claude asking whether it could give legal advice, the bot said, "No, you have to consult with a qualified attorney." So the judge said, "Yeah, no, it's not covered by client-attorney privilege." So just, I think that's important for everybody to know that.

Leo Laporte [02:21:45]:
Where. You ask Claude some questions. They fired that Ars Technica reporter who used quotes fabricated by an AI. He's out of work. Ben Edwards no longer working at Ars Technica. I think that's probably the right thing to do.

Paris Martineau [02:22:01]:
Yes. Yeah. What sort of quotes did he fire?

Leo Laporte [02:22:03]:
Oh, you don't remember this story?

Jeff Jarvis [02:22:05]:
We talked about it here, I thought.

Leo Laporte [02:22:07]:
We did.

Jeff Jarvis [02:22:07]:
You were gone this week.

Leo Laporte [02:22:08]:
That week. Maybe you weren't here.

Jeff Jarvis [02:22:11]:
Yeah, um, yeah, actually you weren't.

Leo Laporte [02:22:12]:
You were— this was on this— this was on the story about the, uh, guy who ran an open source project who got a PR from an AI who rejected the PR because it was written by an AI. And the AI said, hey, you, you can't do that, and then wrote a blog post. The AI wrote a blog post. It's blaming it. It actually was a good conversation. We read some of the back and forth from the GitHub repository, which I thought actually was pretty well done and judicious on both sides. The AI later apologized. But the reporter apparently fabricated or used an AI that was fabricating quotations attributed to a source that didn't say them.— and the A.R.S.

Leo Laporte [02:23:04]:
pulled the article down, characterized it as a serious failure of our standards. A.R.S. has said the error appeared to be an isolated incident. And I think that's probably the case. A.R.S.

Paris Martineau [02:23:15]:
is pretty good. Edwards said that he was sick at the time and, quote, while working from bed with a fever and very little sleep, he unintentionally made a serious journalistic error as he attempted to use an, quote, experimental Claude code-based AI tool to help him extract fact-relevant verbatim source material and make my damn quota even though I'm sick.

Leo Laporte [02:23:38]:
Yeah, I should have taken a sick day because in the course of that interaction I inadvertently ended up with a paraphrased version of Shambhala's words rather than his actual words. Can I get sued for doing— Yeah, I think you might. Okay. He was not drunk, he was sick and feverish. I apologize in in advance. But he shouldn't have done it. And although, you know, I've read— I believe I've written a lot of Benj's work, and I think he's quite good.

Paris Martineau [02:24:07]:
So the irony of an AI reporter being tripped up by AI's hallucination is not lost on me. Yeah, I take accuracy in my work very seriously, and this is a painful failure on my part.

Leo Laporte [02:24:18]:
Yeah, I, I, I think does not reflect poorly on Benj. Well, it does, but I mean, I think he took responsibility.

Jeff Jarvis [02:24:24]:
The question is, would you hire Benj?

Paris Martineau [02:24:26]:
Having—

Leo Laporte [02:24:27]:
I would. He's not going to do that again. He's not going to do it again. Exactly. So I think that's— I don't think that that's, uh, I agree. But I understand why they felt like they had to fire him. Now meanwhile, uh, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, which has the best name ever, it is, uh, has decided—

Jeff Jarvis [02:24:43]:
huh? I used to work with them. I started Cleveland.com with them.

Leo Laporte [02:24:48]:
Oh, uh, they have begun to feature a new byline, uh, on recent articles about an ice carving festival, a medical research discovery and a roaming pack of chicken-slaying dogs, a reporter's name is paired with the words Advanced Local Express Desk, which means apparently the article was drafted by AI.

Jeff Jarvis [02:25:08]:
So the argument is— I wrote about this— the argument that Quinn makes, the editor, is that they can get more reporting done. And I was talking with a class at Montclair State this week, and I said, I explained to them my job when I worked the Chicago Tribune was called rewrite. Reporters would call in the notes and I would look up the clips and I would call sources and then I would write a paragraph at a time on deadline making a story. When I worked at Time Inc., correspondents would send in 40 pages of notes and I would turn into a little tiny story. So in essence, the AI is doing the job that we called rewrite. And the argument that Quinn, the editor, makes is that he gets more reporting as a result. And that's what we want is more reporting. And so if it's checked properly and worked properly, if the reporter sends in reporting notes and it gets turned into a story, what's the problem? And my argument was, yeah, I think he has a point.

Jeff Jarvis [02:25:59]:
The only thing I would argue is why turn it all into an article? Why not think about other forms that the AI can turn it into that may be just as valuable now that we can create more things?

Paris Martineau [02:26:09]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:26:09]:
Um, so what do you think then about the fresh out of college job applicant who withdrew from a reporting fellowship with the Cleveland Plain Dealer when they found out the position didn't include writing, just filing notes to an AI writing tool. In other words, giving it the notes and then letting the AI write the article. Little snot. Professor Jarvis says you're a snot.

Jeff Jarvis [02:26:34]:
Yeah. Paris, what do you think about this?

Paris Martineau [02:26:36]:
Can you repeat the question?

Jeff Jarvis [02:26:38]:
So a kid out of college You were playing.

Leo Laporte [02:26:42]:
I was reading off text. Did you just say a mean word on my— A little fresh out of college job applicant had applied for a reporting fellowship, but then found out that the position did not include writing, but going out, doing reportage, and then giving your notes to an AI to write the final article, kind of like a copy editor, except it's an AI. I think that's messed up. So you agree with the student withdrawing?

Paris Martineau [02:27:09]:
Yes. I think that you should make that very clear from the first job interview, and it should not be surprising to the person taking that job.

Jeff Jarvis [02:27:18]:
But back in the day, since I'm old guy here, back in the day, there were many jobs on newspapers that were reporting only.

Paris Martineau [02:27:24]:
No, I know that. But one, again, like we've talked before with Anthropic, and even this Edwards story, we just talked But when the people doing those rewrites are human, you have someone you can blame. In this case, if this AI is going to publish something under this person's byline that ends up being wrong, they're the one on the hook probably for it, or their reputation.

Jeff Jarvis [02:27:52]:
They should get a chance to look at it.

Paris Martineau [02:27:54]:
And, um, but I also think if you're hiring an early career journalist, they're clearly clearly taking this job because they think it's going to help them advance their career. And as an early career, fresh to college journalist, that means getting bylines and getting experience writing. And if you are in a position where that's what you thought you're going to be doing, and on day one of the job you realize it's not that, something has gone terribly wrong.

Jeff Jarvis [02:28:17]:
Well, I'll devil's advocate you that we argue all the time that you shouldn't come into journalism to write, People come into journalism to report. The reporting is the most important part and valuable part of journalism. And so that's where the value is.

Leo Laporte [02:28:30]:
The writing is— It was a fellowship. It wasn't like a job. It was like—

Paris Martineau [02:28:34]:
A fellowship, I'd argue it's even more problematic because that's supposed to be like an internship. Where you would learn your way. It's supposed to be giving someone experience. Right.

Leo Laporte [02:28:43]:
Doing a job. Experience collecting information for an AI, which may be more likely the kind of job you might be getting in the future.

Jeff Jarvis [02:28:50]:
Every correspondent at Time Inc. did not write the story, never wrote a story.

Leo Laporte [02:28:54]:
They sent in—

Jeff Jarvis [02:28:54]:
really? They sent in 30, 40 pages, literally 30, 40 pages.

Leo Laporte [02:28:57]:
So it's a rewrite. It's an AI-based—

Jeff Jarvis [02:28:58]:
I was a writer at Time Inc. I was a writer. And when I was at Chicago Today, the paper that had no tomorrow—

Leo Laporte [02:29:04]:
you get a byline when you do that?

Jeff Jarvis [02:29:07]:
No, they didn't used to, but they added them.

Leo Laporte [02:29:09]:
Okay.

Jeff Jarvis [02:29:09]:
It used to be Time Inc. had no bylines. It was very, very much like, um, uh, I remember those days. Yeah, we had a guy at Chicago Chicago today, we call Bullet Bob Glass. He was a really good reporter. He had great contacts in the city government. He spoke out of the side of his mouth like you expect in Chicago. He would send in notes and notes and notes.

Jeff Jarvis [02:29:30]:
And the reason he was named Bullet Bob Glass is because you'd write up his stuff, and he had good stuff, but at some point you couldn't figure out how to make another story out of it. So they would just say, in other reporting, colon, bullet, bullet, bullet, bullet, because you couldn't make any sense of it. So we called him Bullet Bob Glass.

Leo Laporte [02:29:45]:
A, uh, the Journal of the Canadian Pediatric Society, Pediatrics and Child Health, has issued corrections on 138 cases that is published over the last 25 years to add the disclaimer the cases described are fictional.

Paris Martineau [02:30:05]:
Oh boy.

Leo Laporte [02:30:05]:
The corrections come following a January article in a New Yorker Magazine that mentions that one of the stories was made up. The New Yorker article made public admission by one of the co-authors. Yeah, we just made that up. This doesn't have anything to do with AI. So I guess it's just another example of the pressure to fabricate. Doesn't require AI to do this. There is a really interesting debate going on in the open source community right now. We talked about this with Cory Doctorow and Joey de Villa on Twitter as well.

Leo Laporte [02:30:48]:
There is a Python library called CareDET that— you made a sound. Do you know that library? Are you a fan?

Jeff Jarvis [02:30:58]:
I burped.

Leo Laporte [02:31:01]:
She's passing I'm taking notes. You're burping. I don't know. Maybe we should just do a final ad and get the hell out of Dodge. It is 2 hours and 30.

Paris Martineau [02:31:10]:
It is 3 hours into the show.

Leo Laporte [02:31:12]:
Not 3 hours.

Paris Martineau [02:31:13]:
It's 8 PM.

Leo Laporte [02:31:15]:
Well, yeah, we, if we, yeah. Okay. I guess you're right. All right. Let me, let me take a break and then we'll do our picks and we'll, we'll get the heck out of Dodge. Now I did get an email from somebody last week saying saying, don't make this show so grim, Leo. Do you feel that this is a grim show? Honestly?

Jeff Jarvis [02:31:39]:
Yeah. I think it was aimed at us because you're, you're Dr.

Leo Laporte [02:31:42]:
Optimism.

Paris Martineau [02:31:42]:
I think you're Dr.

Leo Laporte [02:31:43]:
If I did more voices, it would be less grim. So I'm gonna do the, the rest of this show.

Paris Martineau [02:31:51]:
I think that we should all talk in a funny whimpy voice.

Leo Laporte [02:31:55]:
Yeah, that sounds good.

Jeff Jarvis [02:31:57]:
So let me ask you a question. I'm listening to a book right now which is really good, but I think you'd really, really like, which is called The Last Kings of Hollywood, about Spielberg and Lucas and Coppola. And it's really well written, it's really good, but the narrator, whenever it's a quote from Steven Spielberg, it does a wimpy voice like that, which is not how Steven Spielberg talks. No, it's really irritating. It's what both Lucas and Spielberg get. Would be voices.

Paris Martineau [02:32:33]:
Yeah, I'm just imagining, feel like, oh, now I do the Steven Spielberg voice.

Leo Laporte [02:32:39]:
We're going to use a puppet for the, uh, for the E.T. What do you think?

Jeff Jarvis [02:32:44]:
I listened to another book called The Typewriter and the Guillotine, and the, and the The narrator in that would read something that was from a French person and would do it in a French accent. No, that's the way I read the book.

Guy Kawasaki [02:32:55]:
I hate—

Leo Laporte [02:32:55]:
no, I hate that. That's all right, just let me hear it. This is a little bit of the narration. Let's see if he does it. This is Audible. Oh yeah, they're not going—

Jeff Jarvis [02:33:03]:
you got to skip all those first things.

Paris Martineau [02:33:05]:
Read by Sean Taylor Corbett.

Leo Laporte [02:33:07]:
Well, Sean Taylor Corbett sounds—

Paris Martineau [02:33:08]:
you've got to get to chapter 1. Yeah, you're in the, uh, preview right now.

Leo Laporte [02:33:12]:
I know, that's all I'm getting.

Jeff Jarvis [02:33:14]:
The music at the beginning, you gotta skip at the end and then it'll skip to the next one.

Paris Martineau [02:33:17]:
Click pause and then go to the table of contents.

Jeff Jarvis [02:33:20]:
Nonfiction.

Paris Martineau [02:33:21]:
Here we go. Any passage presented, it sounds like this anyway, is a direct quote from an interview written. A packets, third party. Guys, we gotta click the table of contents, open that up and go to a chapter.

Leo Laporte [02:33:32]:
You can't because it's a preview. Oh, maybe they— now, yes, see, I can only—

Paris Martineau [02:33:38]:
oh, oh. Oh, it was right there.

Leo Laporte [02:33:41]:
Oh no. But it does look like a good book. I'd just like to say that. And Audible will probably be the best way to listen to it.

Jeff Jarvis [02:33:49]:
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's good.

Leo Laporte [02:33:50]:
I'm fine. I like Hollywood stories.

Jeff Jarvis [02:33:52]:
And if I were Spielberg, what would you think? Oh, you gotta make me—

Paris Martineau [02:33:56]:
I would think that they clearly must not like movies.

Leo Laporte [02:34:03]:
I want Liza Minnelli's new book. I hope reads it. Uh, probably doesn't, though. But she's this week released a biography, uh, of her life, which has been quite wild.

Paris Martineau [02:34:19]:
Um, and, uh, can you do a Liza Minnelli?

Leo Laporte [02:34:23]:
No.

Jeff Jarvis [02:34:23]:
Oh, she's narrator. She's there. You get a preview.

Leo Laporte [02:34:26]:
Liza Minnelli, 79, lets loose on lovers, drugs, and what happened with Lady Gaga at the Oscars in bombshell memoir. It's called Kids, Wait Till You Hear This, and it just came out yesterday.

Jeff Jarvis [02:34:39]:
Yeah, you can go to it on Amazon.

Leo Laporte [02:34:42]:
I think I'm not supposed to do this, but Benino, just cut it out, okay? Just put a big boop over it or something.

Guy Kawasaki [02:34:52]:
Well, then I'm gonna have to cut out all the context too then.

Jeff Jarvis [02:34:56]:
People become emotional at the mere mention of her name.

Leo Laporte [02:34:58]:
Well, that's not her.

Jeff Jarvis [02:34:59]:
That's the intro, probably. Buy it. Hit the end of the bar. Just, just, yeah, just what do you call it?

Leo Laporte [02:35:06]:
Scrub it. You've reached the end of this preview.

Jeff Jarvis [02:35:11]:
You went too far. You reached the end.

Leo Laporte [02:35:16]:
It sounded just like Steven Spielberg. You reached the end of this movie. To see more, all right, you have to buy it. Well, good. We just know this was just the ungrim segment. I just want to do one ungrim segment with Funny voices and laughter.

Jeff Jarvis [02:35:34]:
Well, music. No, that's no good. You can't play— you shouldn't have played it because there's music in it.

Leo Laporte [02:35:37]:
I don't think that was real music. I don't think we have to worry about it. I don't know. I'm more worried about Audible getting mad at me, to be honest.

Jeff Jarvis [02:35:46]:
Promoting their books. Audible, come on.

Leo Laporte [02:35:48]:
I keep saying that, but that doesn't stop them.

Guy Kawasaki [02:35:50]:
That doesn't matter.

Leo Laporte [02:35:51]:
Yeah, it doesn't seem to matter. That's why I said, oh, it's a pretty good book that you'd probably want to listen to on Audible.

Jeff Jarvis [02:35:59]:
Can I have one fit?

Leo Laporte [02:36:01]:
Yes, I see this, and that's why I highlighted it in red.

Jeff Jarvis [02:36:05]:
So you can avoid it, or so you could come to it?

Leo Laporte [02:36:07]:
So I could come to it, because it says Jeff's effing had it.

Paris Martineau [02:36:11]:
It's orange. Are you colorblind?

Leo Laporte [02:36:13]:
No, I just missed— I pushed the wrong—

Paris Martineau [02:36:16]:
I, you know, I just wanted to make sure.

Leo Laporte [02:36:18]:
No, I know it's orange. I was painting a picture for the people at home who I can't see it. What is the problem, Jeff? Google rolls Gemini in more apps. Okay, meanwhile, I still cannot get Google Gemini embedded in my Google Chrome.

Jeff Jarvis [02:36:34]:
You didn't do a good read. No, you gotta capitalize Google.

Paris Martineau [02:36:36]:
I still cannot get Google Gemini in more apps. Okay, meanwhile, I still cannot get Google Gemini embedded in my Google Word Chrome on my Google Chromebook with a Google Workspace account.

Leo Laporte [02:36:52]:
WTF? You didn't— you said you couldn't do voices. You can do voices.

Paris Martineau [02:36:57]:
I can, but I don't know what that was.

Leo Laporte [02:37:00]:
It doesn't— you don't have to know what it is. Definitely don't. So what are you upset about?

Jeff Jarvis [02:37:07]:
In my browser, in my Google Chrome, on my Google Chromebook, under my Google Workspace account, I can't get Google Gemini. All— everybody Everybody else using Chrome has Gemini in there.

Leo Laporte [02:37:18]:
So I— And everybody else using Chrome doesn't want it.

Jeff Jarvis [02:37:20]:
Well, but I'm the one person in the world who does, and I can't get it.

Leo Laporte [02:37:23]:
So here's our—

Paris Martineau [02:37:24]:
Jeff, I'll let you know what you're missing. Every time I write an email now, somewhere between—

Jeff Jarvis [02:37:30]:
Oh, I got it.

Paris Martineau [02:37:30]:
20 and 44% of the words have a little angry purple squiggle under it that's just like, what if you change this to be something worse?

Leo Laporte [02:37:40]:
That's not how Neelay Patel would say it.

Paris Martineau [02:37:43]:
It.

Guy Kawasaki [02:37:45]:
All right, it's not like spelling anymore.

Leo Laporte [02:37:49]:
Show my screen. This is the rundown, right? This is the thing. Do you not have this little guy here that you rotate? You click it and ask Gemini?

Jeff Jarvis [02:37:58]:
No, I do, I do, and I do in Sheets, I do in Gmail. I don't in Chrome browser. Oh, I want to use it to see what happens. Just, I wanted to analyze, you know, tabs and things like Ah, that's what I want. Okay, I have it. I have it in Gmail, I have it in Sheets, I have it in Docs, but I don't have it for some reason in a Chrome browser on a Chromebook.

Leo Laporte [02:38:20]:
That is odd.

Jeff Jarvis [02:38:21]:
It's really odd. Google, come on, man, come on. I'm not joking now.

Paris Martineau [02:38:25]:
You should get Computer.

Leo Laporte [02:38:28]:
Yeah, you should get— really, honestly, just get rid of your computer and get Computer.

Paris Martineau [02:38:34]:
Yeah, toss the that computer and get computer.

Jeff Jarvis [02:38:36]:
The truth is, on my computer, I can't have computer.

Leo Laporte [02:38:40]:
Oh, no perplexity computer on your computer?

Jeff Jarvis [02:38:42]:
Because my computer is a Chrome computer.

Leo Laporte [02:38:45]:
Do we have any insight?

Paris Martineau [02:38:47]:
On my computer, I can't have computer is a perfect sentence. I just like— we can't have another computer-based title after last week.

Leo Laporte [02:38:56]:
But there was last week's title. I didn't—

Paris Martineau [02:38:59]:
I didn't hear it. You got Download Computer, I think. Really?

Leo Laporte [02:39:03]:
Yeah, I thought it was gonna be— second week.

Guy Kawasaki [02:39:07]:
No, it was, uh, You Gotta Get Computer was last week.

Paris Martineau [02:39:10]:
You Gotta Get Computer.

Leo Laporte [02:39:12]:
All right, this week I'm gonna title it We Have Computer at Home.

Paris Martineau [02:39:18]:
Uh, we can't get computer at home though. Jeff can't have computer at home.

Jeff Jarvis [02:39:23]:
No, come on, computer on my computer.

Leo Laporte [02:39:26]:
Do we have anything to say about Jay Graber stepping down at BlueSky? CEO of BlueSky stepping up.

Paris Martineau [02:39:32]:
I frankly think more CEOs should step down when they're like, I shouldn't be the CEO of a company of this size. I think it's great.

Leo Laporte [02:39:39]:
She was there from the beginning when it was just a research project.

Jeff Jarvis [02:39:42]:
Great work. And made it into something, especially as X disintegrated. She did wonderful work. And Tony Schneider, who's stepping in as the interim CEO. Is great. He's a, uh, a nice investor and has worked very closely with Matt Miller, and he's just temporary. His companies—

Leo Laporte [02:39:59]:
he's just gonna bring in a real CEO.

Jeff Jarvis [02:40:01]:
He's acting— he acted as CEO of WordPress, of Automattic, for a while. Tony's great. Um, so, uh, we could— we should find out what Matt, uh, Masnick has to say because he's on the board.

Leo Laporte [02:40:13]:
Oh yes, we should. Are we trying to get Mike on?

Paris Martineau [02:40:16]:
I would like to find a 4.5-minute window that works for his schedule.

Leo Laporte [02:40:21]:
I could tell you one thing. William Shatner did not get $42 million— $42, sorry, $42 from Jay Graber. He did get $42 from Elon Musk. So there, this is the new— so X is now doing X money. You, I guess you have to be a, you know, fading movie star to, to get the access. But, uh, last month Shatner said Musk sent him $42 through X money, which helped Shatner raise $200,000 for charity. Good for him.

Jeff Jarvis [02:40:57]:
Have you seen the Will Shatner Raisin Bran commercial?

Leo Laporte [02:41:01]:
Yes, it's quite funny. It was on the Super Bowl.

Jeff Jarvis [02:41:05]:
Uh, here bringing you fiber to the masses with Kellogg's Raisin Prep.

Leo Laporte [02:41:10]:
It was a little— it was a little—

Jeff Jarvis [02:41:11]:
it was a little edgy.

Leo Laporte [02:41:13]:
Edgy. Yeah, I love Shatner and I wish him the best. He says, um, one day Musk writes to me, well, I don't have my fortune tied up in cash, it's all in ownership of the varieties of companies, Shatner said. So I jokingly say, well, if you need a few dollars, I can lend you a few dollars. Instead, Musk sent him $42, for a nod to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and, uh, And now I'm not sure exactly how he turned this into a big charitable contribution. I guess— oh, I get it. He says, I got $42 from Elon. I'll sell each of these dollars.

Leo Laporte [02:41:54]:
He offered donors access to the beta in exchange for contributions. For $1,000, donors will receive $1 from the X money money account, he said he thought he would get $42,000, or $1,000 for every buck. But the first round sold out so fast, Musk sent another $42. And so basically they're in this cooperative to promote Xmoney, which if you ask me, I wouldn't go near, but okay, fine.

Guy Kawasaki [02:42:25]:
Do they believe that money is not fungible? I don't understand this at all.

Leo Laporte [02:42:30]:
Yeah, because you're not getting a physical dollar bill signed by Elon Musk. Ask you just getting a dollar in your Xmoney account. But that— oh, that did give you access to it, because if somebody who has an Xmoney account sends you money, now you have an Xmoney account.

Guy Kawasaki [02:42:44]:
Oh, okay.

Leo Laporte [02:42:45]:
So whatever you do, folks, do not send me any Xmoney. I do not want it.

Guy Kawasaki [02:42:51]:
Don't send me.

Leo Laporte [02:42:52]:
Uh, last ad, and then we're gonna do our picks of the week, if you don't mind, boys and girls. You're watching Intelligent Machines with a groggy Paris Martineau and a fading Jeff Jarvis. I have, I've worn them down. I have worn them down. I did. Did you miss me from last week? I bet Jason Heiner didn't wear you down, did he? No, he kept the show moving.

Jeff Jarvis [02:43:19]:
Oh, Paris, you're muted.

Paris Martineau [02:43:20]:
He actually had a very hard out because the podcast studio he was in was going to kick him out if we did a show this long.

Leo Laporte [02:43:27]:
Yeah, so he would have been gone 8 minutes ago.

Paris Martineau [02:43:30]:
A large cane would have come from stage right and pulled him off.

Leo Laporte [02:43:36]:
This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Stash. Have you dabbled in investing here and there but haven't been happy with how things are going? Stash helps turn good intentions into consistent progress. Stash isn't just another investing app, it's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with expert personalized guidance so you don't have to worry about gambling the, the gambling or figuring it out on your own. Stash is simple, smart, and stress-free. Choose from personalized investments. Let Stash's award-winning Smart Portfolio do the work for you, or pick a combo of both. Stash is there to help guide you every step of the way. Join over 1 million active Stash subscribers and finally let your money work as hard as you do.

Leo Laporte [02:44:23]:
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Leo Laporte [02:44:51]:
See the Advisory Agreement and Deposit Account Agreement for details. Details. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments, LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk. Now it's time for our Picks of the Week. That should liven things up. Who wants to start? Let's let Paris start.

Paris Martineau [02:45:15]:
I'm trying to decide whether I want to invite everybody. Okay, I won't.

Leo Laporte [02:45:19]:
You're playing too many games already. I know they No, no, this is becoming a— did you pick your handle, by the way, or is that an audio?

Paris Martineau [02:45:27]:
Yeah, I did pick my handle. Apparently you can just set your handle to anything, so I could just change it to the letter A. It's not unique, but I just thought it was kind of funny. Stone Cold Killer. Stone Cold Killer. So I guess my pick will be— it's labeled I'm Going Crazy under my picks, which I've descended into coffee madness. Oh, I have recently been optimizing my pour-over setup. As I've talked about in the show, I've got a brew logger now going on.

Paris Martineau [02:45:56]:
I, I vibe-coded this photo that I'm showing is I realized that I think my issues with coffee consistency might be because my manual grinder isn't producing an even distribution of particles. So I found a, uh, website that I guess could actually be my pick of the week. Um, I'll find it once.

Leo Laporte [02:46:17]:
Oh, you have a 292.27 micrometer standard.

Paris Martineau [02:46:21]:
I know. And my particle size was way too high to begin with. And see, if you look, you have one that's up there that's 1,226 microns and another from the exact same batch that's 950 microns.

Jeff Jarvis [02:46:37]:
But how does it taste, Paris?

Paris Martineau [02:46:39]:
It tastes good, but sometimes, the thing is, I started doing this because I had dialed in a great coffee recipe. I had like 92 clicks on my 1Zpresso J-Manual grinder and this wonderful coffee from Perk that I'd really recommend called the Ethiopia Chelcha, which is an anaerobic natural process that has phenomenal blueberry, strawberry notes.

Leo Laporte [02:47:07]:
This is what Jeff was deeply afraid of.

Paris Martineau [02:47:10]:
But I was getting some of my best cups in the morning.

Jeff Jarvis [02:47:13]:
This is why she's a investigative reporter.

Paris Martineau [02:47:15]:
String up. But then I, I changed nothing about my setup. I've got my Hario Switch, I'm doing a 4-6 pour method, I've got, uh, ranging from 205 degrees to 210. But sometimes I would get a 9 out of 10 cup, and the next day I'd get a 5 out of 10 cup. And I was like, what is the issue? And the issue is that my particle size is trash. And so And now what I've realized I'm going to do is go to— I'm going to put this also in the rundown so you can click on it. I found a place in Greenpoint called Hyonia Club, which is a coffee club for freaks where you can pay $15 to get a day pass and try out— they have every fancy coffee equipment you could imagine. What fun! And you can try them all out and determine whether or not it's actually worth spending $200+ on a grinder.

Leo Laporte [02:48:12]:
$200? Oh, that's not a good enough grinder. You need to spend $2,500 on this.

Paris Martineau [02:48:17]:
I know, dude. I'm gonna try— I'm gonna try this.

Leo Laporte [02:48:22]:
Well, this is what you need.

Paris Martineau [02:48:23]:
That's an espresso grinder. I don't make espresso. Oh, that's right, you need a regular grinder. I could— I don't know necessarily that I want to even pay for an electric grinder because we have a burr more cost to it. And I'm only making 20 grams of coffee at a time. Over— I might pay like $400 for a manual grinder, which is—

Guy Kawasaki [02:48:44]:
doesn't the CR Lab have like every grinder available?

Paris Martineau [02:48:48]:
Yeah, well, that's a great point. We don't have— we haven't tested manual and specialty coffee grinders, and I think that could be a great avenue for us to explore.

Leo Laporte [02:49:00]:
Maybe I've got— working on—

Guy Kawasaki [02:49:02]:
you gotta pitch that.

Paris Martineau [02:49:03]:
You got to pitch that song now. I, I'm going to, um, as I've gotten into this, I've downloaded this great book called The Physics of Filter Coffee.

Leo Laporte [02:49:11]:
I, I'm, I am like, you're watching James Hoffman's reviews?

Paris Martineau [02:49:15]:
No, although I've— because I don't like YouTube videos, but I have read a lot of— yes, I know, but I'm like trying to get more into the physics of it rather than specifically coffee influencers because their vibes change.

Leo Laporte [02:49:26]:
He's not an influencer, he's really a coffee expert. I would—

Paris Martineau [02:49:28]:
yeah. Yes, he's an expert. I follow— the recipe I'm using is by another expert like this, and I was using a Hoffman recipe for a while, but—

Leo Laporte [02:49:37]:
I gotta get you on with the Coffee Geek. We've done coffee shows on the club, and we'll do a special coffee show with you and—

Paris Martineau [02:49:44]:
we should—

Leo Laporte [02:49:45]:
the Coffee Geek, because I think Mark Prince is fantastic, and he is an expert on all this stuff. He does like his espresso. The other thing I would recommend— I wanted to buy this. I almost did. This is a brewer that does pour over automatically for a more consistent—

Paris Martineau [02:50:00]:
I mean, I don't know.

Leo Laporte [02:50:01]:
So I guess it has a PID and everything.

Paris Martineau [02:50:05]:
So you can, based on the thing that says ratio 4, makes me suggest, suggest to me that it might be a 4:6 brewing method. But I think part of it is I do, I'm making coffee for just me, and it really, it just makes one cup. It takes 5 minutes literally in the morning from grinding.

Leo Laporte [02:50:22]:
I think Hand grinding's got to stop. I don't think—

Paris Martineau [02:50:24]:
the hand grinding. So Leo, I was right there with you 2 months ago. I was over at a friend's house.

Leo Laporte [02:50:30]:
Don't use the Ozo though, that's terrible. That's a horrible—

Paris Martineau [02:50:33]:
I, I was at— I mean, listen, I— the Oxo was a problem, but I was at a friend's house and he was manually coffee grinding in the morning and I was like, what is this, the Stone Age? Are you an idiot? And then I did more research and I was like, no, honestly, you can get, you can get Good stuff. Um, but I think what I've realized is I need to— it all depends on your particle size distribution.

Leo Laporte [02:50:59]:
So this is a grind size analyzer. Is this an app?

Paris Martineau [02:51:03]:
Yes, I need to actually find where it is.

Leo Laporte [02:51:05]:
Hon, I got it right here. The grind size analyzer. So you use your phone, you take a picture, you upload it, and it will tell you. All right, I'm gonna do this.

Paris Martineau [02:51:13]:
It's just a web It's a website, right?

Leo Laporte [02:51:17]:
I wanna do this. Yeah, it's not a, you're right. It's just a URL. What's the URL? unspecialty.edu. So I will do this with our Baratza grinder and I'll let you know.

Paris Martineau [02:51:27]:
There's certainly some problems with it. Like obviously you're just taking a photo. You can't, despite what the instructions say, have the grinds go over little boxes. But I would suggest doing it a couple times with samples from all, from the top and bottom of your grind cup, because it'll differentiate because you got boulders up top and fines below, as I well know now.

Leo Laporte [02:51:54]:
You are hysterical. So actually the website is unspecialtycoffee.com.

Paris Martineau [02:51:56]:
I am ruining my life, low key, but it's also resulting in delightful coffee.

Leo Laporte [02:52:01]:
And so my last— How many cups a day do you drink?

Paris Martineau [02:52:05]:
One, in the morning.

Leo Laporte [02:52:06]:
Yeah, see, that's my problem is I can only drink one in the morning.

Paris Martineau [02:52:10]:
But it's when it's— but if it's a really good Ethiopia chelcha, when I'm making it right, it tastes like, like strong blueberry and strawberry notes.

Leo Laporte [02:52:21]:
So I would also recommend— medium, a light—

Paris Martineau [02:52:24]:
it's like light medium. Yeah, over there. I also recently just got a bag in today from Hydrangea Roasters. It's gonna be a lighter one I'm trying. But I would really recommend people check out this Ethiopia chelcha from Perk Coffee. And if you're listening to this, uh, later this week on the 13th, Perk— this is not an ad, I just really like this one thing of Perk is kind of obsessed with the number 13. So on the 13th of every month, this roaster gives you 31% off any order of their site. So I don't know, if you want to try a fancy coffee, you can get it for a third off.

Paris Martineau [02:52:55]:
It's kind of fun.

Leo Laporte [02:52:56]:
I might, uh, I might try this. I usually just make espresso, but, uh, this—

Paris Martineau [02:53:02]:
I don't know how this works.

Leo Laporte [02:53:03]:
Is it like— is it compared to Yirgacheffe, which is what we've been—

Paris Martineau [02:53:06]:
It's an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe.

Leo Laporte [02:53:08]:
Oh, it is? It's just—

Paris Martineau [02:53:09]:
they call it from the Gedo Zone. I believe Chelche might be the producer.

Leo Laporte [02:53:14]:
Oh, okay. I really, really like it.

Jeff Jarvis [02:53:19]:
Yeah, they're doing this just for this.

Paris Martineau [02:53:21]:
And so on their website, they have Revel Espresso, uh, brewing instructions as well.

Leo Laporte [02:53:28]:
And this is, uh, an anaerobic natural process, Geoff?

Jeff Jarvis [02:53:33]:
Is it washed?

Leo Laporte [02:53:34]:
It's not washed, is it?

Paris Martineau [02:53:36]:
It's not washed, but you know, one of the things I've been getting really into is co-ferments. Have you heard about this? They're a bit controversial in the coffee world, but I think that's dumb. It's where the fermentation process, they introduce additional fruits in there.

Leo Laporte [02:53:51]:
You're doing this just to annoy Geoff, aren't you?

Paris Martineau [02:53:53]:
I am. He looks like he's being He's being tortured.

Leo Laporte [02:53:56]:
Oh, we're torturing him. We're just torturing him. We do AeroPress around here with a Baratza grinder and it produces a pretty good cup of coffee, but you know, I— I heard about soup.

Paris Martineau [02:54:09]:
All the AeroPress boys are doing soup now.

Leo Laporte [02:54:11]:
Look it up. Soup in an AeroPress?

Paris Martineau [02:54:15]:
No. It's not actual soup. It's a method of brewing coffee that's called soup. Soup, okay. Apparently it's the hot thing in more ways than one.

Leo Laporte [02:54:24]:
So, uh, your recommendation also is the— which subreddit? The Pour Over subreddit?

Paris Martineau [02:54:29]:
I rec— it's a blessing and a curse. The r/pourover has caused all these things that just— that word vomit that's happened to happen.

Leo Laporte [02:54:36]:
I've never done pour over. I never got pour over because when I was a kid we had a Chemex and we would pour the coffee into the Chemex, but this is a little different.

Paris Martineau [02:54:44]:
No, no, no, no, that's what I've realized. So before all of this, me, a fool, 3 months ago, I was doing the Chemex. Little did But I realized the Chemex filters, they're stripping all the flavors I want out of that. Plus the crappy grinder I was using, I was getting, I was paying for all this fancy coffee, I was getting trash. It's like a whole, I've got a Hario Switch now, which allows me to do both immersion and percolation, but it's glass, because I got the glass one 'cause I'm worried about microplastics, so I've gotta preheat it. It's a dive.

Jeff Jarvis [02:55:16]:
What happens when you add caffeine to this mania you're displaying right now?

Leo Laporte [02:55:21]:
Here's my question. How long does it take you to make your coffee in the morning?

Paris Martineau [02:55:27]:
From stepping over to my kitchen to drinking coffee, less than 5 minutes.

Leo Laporte [02:55:32]:
Oh, that's all right.

Paris Martineau [02:55:33]:
The actual brew time is 2:50 to 3:30.

Leo Laporte [02:55:38]:
It feels like you're doing a lot of stuff.

Paris Martineau [02:55:41]:
No, this is all the thinking that I do before, after, around.

Jeff Jarvis [02:55:46]:
To the brewing.

Leo Laporte [02:55:49]:
I have just joined /r/pourover, so— uh-oh, look at this.

Paris Martineau [02:55:56]:
Yeah, everybody's making fun of that guy.

Leo Laporte [02:55:58]:
That's a portable kit, uh, ready to go. Got everything you need for your pour-over. Is that the kind of manual grinder you have there?

Paris Martineau [02:56:05]:
Is that— uh, yes, that is the kind of manual grinder.

Leo Laporte [02:56:08]:
Yeah, I can't believe that seems—

Paris Martineau [02:56:10]:
there was a video someone posted of someone on an airplane brewing brewing coffee because they had a Stagg, fellow Stagg EKG kettle, all this stuff.

Leo Laporte [02:56:22]:
This is a great group because it's people really who are not embarrassed. Uh, they're among friends and they can share their obsessions.

Paris Martineau [02:56:30]:
All right, so if people out there who've listened to all this and understood have any thoughts as to whether I should get a ZP6 or a K-Ultra grinder, please let me know. Or if I should spring for the Pietro, but that might be crazy. You're What I value is fruitiness, and that's not covered by any—

Leo Laporte [02:56:51]:
That's hard to do, and you don't get that in an espresso.

Paris Martineau [02:56:53]:
Because the ZP6 is clarity-focused, but at the sacrifice of body. And the K Ultra might be too body-focused, and I wouldn't get my flavor separation. It's maddening, I tell you.

Leo Laporte [02:57:07]:
I'm so sorry. Poco, I have the Ninja Luxe, actually. It's quite a good coffee maker. I have a coffee maker, but probably not in the category that Paris thinks. But I actually love, for $500, it's a really good coffee maker from Shark. All right. Now you make me want a cup of coffee. The problem is the sun's gone over the yardarm.

Leo Laporte [02:57:29]:
It's not time for coffee. I have to drink it in the morning or I won't sleep well.

Paris Martineau [02:57:33]:
Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't even think I could do decaf. There's something about the idea of just drinking coffee-like beverage that would make me feel—

Jeff Jarvis [02:57:41]:
week. That's all I drink is decaf.

Leo Laporte [02:57:43]:
What you really need is a percolator. Get one of those Hamilton Beach percolators.

Jeff Jarvis [02:57:46]:
I used to have them on my house. It was on all day long.

Leo Laporte [02:57:49]:
And you leave it running.

Jeff Jarvis [02:57:51]:
Yep.

Guy Kawasaki [02:57:51]:
And you have—

Leo Laporte [02:57:52]:
you could drink all day, but you make—

Jeff Jarvis [02:57:53]:
my owner would come over to visit my mother and sit down with them.

Leo Laporte [02:57:57]:
Coffee's on, come on over, have a coffee klatch. Jeff Jarvis, your pick of the week.

Jeff Jarvis [02:58:04]:
Well, uh, so we can talk about how much culture The culture has changed. Two things. One, The Hollywood Reporter reports that YouTube is now the world's largest media company.

Leo Laporte [02:58:17]:
Yeah, isn't that amazing? I actually bookmarked that as a story. That's unbelievable.

Jeff Jarvis [02:58:22]:
YouTube had more than $62 billion revenue, which beats Disney.

Leo Laporte [02:58:27]:
$62 billion, bigger than Disney.

Jeff Jarvis [02:58:30]:
So who was it here who did this? Moffett Nathanson analyst. Analysts estimate its value on its own at $500 to $560 billion versus Netflix, which has a market cap of $409 billion.

Leo Laporte [02:58:43]:
Wow.

Jeff Jarvis [02:58:45]:
Uh, total revenue of $40 billion, but that's ad revenue plus subscription business.

Leo Laporte [02:58:50]:
Yeah, because I subscribe to YouTube TV. I give them my $80 a month.

Jeff Jarvis [02:58:55]:
YouTube has around 10 million subscribers now, which will soon overtake eventually, uh, Charter and Comcast. Yeah, so that's our present world. But I want to take you, children, to the past. What's that?

Leo Laporte [02:59:09]:
Is that Grandpa?

Jeff Jarvis [02:59:10]:
Yeah, the year is 1994. Yeah, and in that time it was so exciting every fall that we would have an entire 1-hour special. In addition to having the guide, we had a 1-hour special of—

Leo Laporte [02:59:26]:
now you can see why he was San Francisco's most eligible bachelor, can't you?

Jeff Jarvis [02:59:31]:
Well, one of ours. Uh, ET's Entertainment Tonight's, uh, fall TV special. So I, I, I swept in the link below. You can keep the sound off.

Leo Laporte [02:59:42]:
Can we watch it?

Jeff Jarvis [02:59:44]:
Yes, you can. Uh, there it is.

Leo Laporte [02:59:47]:
There it is.

Jeff Jarvis [02:59:49]:
You want—

Leo Laporte [02:59:49]:
you do want to watch?

Jeff Jarvis [02:59:51]:
For Mary Hart's hair.

Leo Laporte [02:59:52]:
You can press any button you want. Television season is upon us and it is truly out of this world. I can do wonders.

Paris Martineau [03:00:01]:
I can't. Such big ties.

Leo Laporte [03:00:04]:
Where do you show up?

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:05]:
So if you go to the link that's—

Paris Martineau [03:00:07]:
yeah, we're in the 45 minutes.

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:09]:
Oh yeah, 207.

Leo Laporte [03:00:10]:
I'm there if you go to the link. When I was in my early radio days, right around this time, maybe if a few years earlier, I would, uh, record and watch E.T. every night looking for gossip I could use in my radio show the next day.

Guy Kawasaki [03:00:27]:
So 207, I, I, I swept across to just find out whose birthday it is, is watching E.T. That used to be the only—

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:34]:
we had to do this.

Leo Laporte [03:00:35]:
Yes, we had to do that. All right, let's jump to Jeff's appearance on Entertainment Tonight with— was it Mary Hart?

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:43]:
Yeah, and John Tesh.

Leo Laporte [03:00:46]:
And John Wait a minute, no, it's the beginning.

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:48]:
I don't know, it should, it should be at the time code.

Leo Laporte [03:00:50]:
No, I gotta look at the link again.

Jeff Jarvis [03:00:53]:
Uh, start at 42 minutes.

Leo Laporte [03:00:55]:
All right. I can't zip my pants up.

Paris Martineau [03:00:58]:
I'm Mary Hart. The OG Mary Hart story comes to the small screen.

Leo Laporte [03:01:02]:
Does that mean I'm under arrest?

Paris Martineau [03:01:03]:
And the good guys get the bad guys.

Leo Laporte [03:01:05]:
This is chasing crooks.

Jeff Jarvis [03:01:08]:
It's so ET. It's wonderfully written.

Leo Laporte [03:01:12]:
That's a crazy line.

Paris Martineau [03:01:16]:
Oh, he's in a little floating box! You missed him. Judges Tom Shales of the Washington Post, TV Guide's Jeff Jarvis, and Jonathan Storm.

Leo Laporte [03:01:28]:
B-roll.

Jeff Jarvis [03:01:28]:
I think it's like So-Called Life.

Leo Laporte [03:01:30]:
It's wonderfully written. That was a good show.

Guy Kawasaki [03:01:32]:
One season.

Jeff Jarvis [03:01:33]:
By far my pick for the best show of the music. Yeah, well, there's that. I also panned Friends.

Paris Martineau [03:01:38]:
Girl, I'm sure some critic will say there's no business like show.

Leo Laporte [03:01:40]:
I like Tom Shales. Is he still around?

Jeff Jarvis [03:01:42]:
Oh, he's done.

Leo Laporte [03:01:44]:
Of course.

Paris Martineau [03:01:45]:
I don't know this guy. I watched that recently.

Jeff Jarvis [03:01:48]:
But he always— 3 white guys tell you about TV.

Leo Laporte [03:01:51]:
So these are your picks, huh? Of all 3 of them, you were the one that picked the show that the critics panned? Oh, what did you hate?

Guy Kawasaki [03:01:57]:
One of the shows to be first canceled with McKenna.

Leo Laporte [03:01:59]:
Chad Everett comes back, and boy, is he old. Sure, he's a little bit trouble, I think, this year with his show. It's possible that Martin Short will not get to air.

Jeff Jarvis [03:02:10]:
Why is Daddy's Girls the absolute worst this season?

Leo Laporte [03:02:12]:
Daddy's Girls? There really ought to be— Oh, Dudley Moore. No, no, no. Yeah, I was looking at all these shows. All right, ladies and gentlemen, that's a little glimpse of 1994 seen through the lens of one Jeffrey T. Jarvis. Thank you very much. I have so many things I could show you. This one I think is good for parrot It's called Payphone Go.

Leo Laporte [03:02:33]:
It's like Pokémon Go.

Paris Martineau [03:02:35]:
Oh, I've seen this and I want to play.

Leo Laporte [03:02:37]:
It's only with payphones.

Jeff Jarvis [03:02:38]:
Oh no, another game.

Paris Martineau [03:02:39]:
Where's the nearest payphone to you? Don't answer that.

Leo Laporte [03:02:41]:
Oh, that's a good question. I have to get an ID and all that, but you find a payphone and you go to it and you get points for going to it. Wow, there don't look like—

Paris Martineau [03:02:53]:
There are so many payphones in San Francisco.

Leo Laporte [03:02:55]:
Yeah, but out here in the boonies, I don't see a lot of payphones.

Guy Kawasaki [03:03:00]:
What are the different types? Colors mean?

Leo Laporte [03:03:03]:
Um, I don't know. So it says use the map to locate a pay phone, pick up the receiver, dial 888-683-6697, and then enter your player ID. The first person to call from a pay phone gets 20 points, second person gets 10, third gets 5. Oh look, there's a pay phone! There are two in Petaluma.

Jeff Jarvis [03:03:25]:
So I wonder what—

Leo Laporte [03:03:26]:
there's one, there's two at the fairground. Rounds. And there's one here, and each has one claim just around the corner from our old studio.

Guy Kawasaki [03:03:34]:
I love this game.

Leo Laporte [03:03:35]:
This is awesome. Yeah, so you go, you make a call, and you get points.

Jeff Jarvis [03:03:40]:
Brooklyn. Go to Brooklyn.

Leo Laporte [03:03:41]:
Should we go to Brooklyn? All right, let's zoom out.

Paris Martineau [03:03:43]:
Yeah, wait, no, it's only in California.

Leo Laporte [03:03:45]:
Oh no, really?

Paris Martineau [03:03:47]:
It says California still has only 2,200.

Leo Laporte [03:03:50]:
That's no fun. Why you gotta expand it? Oh man. Well, I guess you can't play Payphone Go.

Guy Kawasaki [03:03:59]:
I mean, it's probably just one dude sitting at home made this, so, you know.

Guy Kawasaki [03:04:02]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [03:04:02]:
Oh, of course it is.

Paris Martineau [03:04:03]:
How did you find out the pay phones?

Leo Laporte [03:04:06]:
You look— oh, there must be some—

Guy Kawasaki [03:04:07]:
there must be some public record, right?

Leo Laporte [03:04:09]:
Public record.

Jeff Jarvis [03:04:10]:
So these aren't, aren't phone company phones anymore. They're, they're—

Leo Laporte [03:04:14]:
no, in fact, Henry's best friend's father made a killing because he bought all of AT&T's pay phones. They wanted to get out of the business. It was a real pain to go around each collect all the dimes. So he put cell phones in the payphones. And he already had a business selling— he would sell ice cream in freezers. You know how you go to a bodega and there's a freezer and there's ice cream in it? He had a really good business. Turns out it's not an ice cream business, it's a logistics business. He made sure that the freezer cases had scales in the feet so they wouldn't bother restocking them until the weight of the freezer was low enough to justify it.

Leo Laporte [03:04:56]:
And he realized, I could do the same thing with a payphone coin case, so I will save time and money only collecting when the payphone is full. Brilliant. He's very wealthy, very wealthy. Got all those payphones for a song. Here's a company that wants to pay you $800 to bully AI. AI, this might be a good job for you, Paris. Um, the company wants candidates with extensive personal history of being let down by technology. The 8-hour session is intended to promote the startup's AI memory tool.

Leo Laporte [03:05:34]:
Uh, if that's your job, go to Professional AI Bully and get paid to bully AI. Oh, only one person gets That's the job. Memvid.com. This sounds a little bit like a promotional vehicle. One person.

Guy Kawasaki [03:05:52]:
Oh, sounds like we're making a pariah for all the AI to kill at the end when it all—

Leo Laporte [03:05:56]:
and then I did get you something. This is for you, Benito. It's called Tweakbench, your favorite producer's favorite plugins. These are all the VST plugins used by famous producers. Producers, I know you want to write your own with Claude Code.

Guy Kawasaki [03:06:14]:
This is awesome though.

Leo Laporte [03:06:14]:
That is great. I thought you might like this. Your favorite producer's favorite plugins, LOL. I'm not sure what the LOL is all about, but— and they're, you know, $5. They're not expensive.

Guy Kawasaki [03:06:29]:
Yeah, I mean, there's a whole— there's a whole range of free ones too that are like—

Leo Laporte [03:06:33]:
that's true. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah, I don't know what the deal is. With this. These are Tweakbench plugins, so I guess this is a company that does plugins. But $5, nice price. Get the whole Tweakbench bundle for $60. Ladies and gentlemen, we have now filled our order cornucopia to the brim with good—

Paris Martineau [03:06:59]:
when's the last time we did a 3.5-hour pod. It's been a minute.

Leo Laporte [03:07:03]:
3 hours and 12 minutes. You, you think we started?

Paris Martineau [03:07:06]:
I logged into the Zoom call 3 hours and 33 minutes.

Jeff Jarvis [03:07:11]:
It's like flight attendants don't get paid until the door is closed.

Leo Laporte [03:07:13]:
The door doesn't start counting. The doors don't close until I push the button.

Paris Martineau [03:07:17]:
And Leo spent those first 30 minutes trying to figure out how Zoom browser works.

Leo Laporte [03:07:22]:
I'm gonna figure that out before the next episode.

Paris Martineau [03:07:25]:
You've said that so many times.

Leo Laporte [03:07:27]:
One of these days. Thank you so much to Guy Kawasaki, a wonderful guest, a wonderful guy. Really enjoyed talking to him. It's probably not too late to email him and get his book for free in a Kindle form. Just email everybodyhasomethingtohide@gmail.com and Guy will send you a copy. Thank you, Paris Martineau. She is doing her coffee research for Consumer Reports where she's an investigative journalist. So nice to see you.

Leo Laporte [03:07:59]:
You got the Hawaiian shirt on. When'd you do that?

Paris Martineau [03:08:01]:
I missed that at the beginning when we all changed into orange to match you.

Leo Laporte [03:08:06]:
Trying to get Zoom to work. Uh, thanks to Jeff Jarvis, put on his Hawaiian black hoodie. Yeah, yeah. Uh, Jeff, of course, the author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis magazine, and soon Hot Type.

Jeff Jarvis [03:08:18]:
Not so soon now. Uh, it was going to come out June 11th. Hot Type, but with a production delay, they were gonna push it into July, and I kinda had a little fit, and I said, "That's death time!" So now it's coming out at the end of August, but you can pre-order it now still.

Leo Laporte [03:08:32]:
So July is not a good time for a book to come out?

Jeff Jarvis [03:08:34]:
No, 'cause everyone's gone, and they're in the sun.

Leo Laporte [03:08:36]:
Hot Type: The Magnificent Machine That Gave Birth to Mass Media and Drove Mark Twain Mad, available July 23rd.

Jeff Jarvis [03:08:45]:
Amazon has a pre-order. They're gonna push that to August now.

Leo Laporte [03:08:47]:
Have you read the, did you read Do the Audible?

Jeff Jarvis [03:08:50]:
I haven't done it yet.

Leo Laporte [03:08:51]:
No, no, but it is going to be available. Yes. Okay, good. Yep. So do me a favor, whenever you do Mark Twain's voice, can you do it like this? Mark Twain here.

Jeff Jarvis [03:09:02]:
Well, who, who was it who played Mark Twain?

Leo Laporte [03:09:05]:
Um, Hal Holbrook.

Jeff Jarvis [03:09:06]:
Hal Holbrook. I think I now have to do my Hal Holbrook.

Leo Laporte [03:09:09]:
Mark Twain, good night. Do you do— tonight, do you do a Hal Holbrook?

Jeff Jarvis [03:09:13]:
Well, should we play a little bit for Paris while the way out here?

Leo Laporte [03:09:16]:
Of Mark Twain tonight? Yeah. Sure, why not? If we haven't been taken down yet. This, I wish I'd seen it. I think there were broadcast versions of it.

Guy Kawasaki [03:09:26]:
Wait, if you're gonna play music, they're not gonna let us even post this on YouTube.

Leo Laporte [03:09:31]:
It's not music. It's not music. It's just Hal Holbrook on stage talking like Mark Twain from 1967. So it's probably not even in copyright anymore. She did a pretty good, credible job with this.

Jeff Jarvis [03:09:46]:
She did.

Leo Laporte [03:09:46]:
Man is really the most interesting jackass there is.

Paris Martineau [03:09:50]:
Why is he dressed like Colonel Sandusky? That's Mark Twain!

Jeff Jarvis [03:09:54]:
At the end of his life, that's what Twain wore.

Leo Laporte [03:09:56]:
He used to— Twain himself used to go around and do lectures. This is all for lectures.

Jeff Jarvis [03:10:00]:
In fact, he had to because the machine that he backed to compete with the Linotype bankrupted him, and late in life he had to go around the world giving talks to make money, to make his money back.

Leo Laporte [03:10:11]:
Would have been fun to see him though. I bet he was great.

Jeff Jarvis [03:10:15]:
Yeah, I should do that voice though, don't you think? Yeah, there's a lot of Twain, uh, quotes. I think I could do that.

Leo Laporte [03:10:24]:
Yeah, see, I'm glad we got some voices in so this wasn't so grim. Thank you for joining us. We do Intelligent Machines every Wednesday, uh, right finish by Thursday. It's usually done by Thursday. We start at 2 PM Pacific, 5 PM Eastern, 2100 UTC, Twitch, YouTube, TikTok, no, not TikTok, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick. Of course, in the Club Twit Discord. And thank you, Club Twit members, for making this show possible. We really appreciate your support.

Leo Laporte [03:10:57]:
Without that, I don't know if we'd be here. I really don't. So we thank you for keeping us on. If you're not member yet, quick, go to twit.tv/clubtwit and join. After the fact, on-demand versions of the show available at twit.tv/im. There's a YouTube video channel dedicated to the show, great for sharing clips.

Paris Martineau [03:11:18]:
Can you use the rest to do a little voice? Can you do a little voice for the rest of the thing?

Leo Laporte [03:11:22]:
Yeah. What voice should we do?

Paris Martineau [03:11:23]:
Do Mark Twain. Or a transatlantic.

Leo Laporte [03:11:28]:
A mid-Atlantic accent.

Paris Martineau [03:11:30]:
Mid-Atlantic.

Leo Laporte [03:11:32]:
Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us on this fine show, and we'll be back again next week for another thrilling, gripping edition of Intelligent Machines. Good night, Martha, and save a beer for me.

Paris Martineau [03:11:46]:
See you on the radio.

Leo Laporte [03:11:48]:
And see you on the radio.

Jeff Jarvis [03:11:50]:
Download computer.

Paris Martineau [03:11:53]:
You can't get computer on his computer system.

Leo Laporte [03:11:59]:
Thank you, everybody. Bye-bye. Hi there, Leo Laporte here. I just wanted to let you know about some of the other shows we do on this network. You probably already know about This Week in Tech. Every Sunday, I bring together some of the top journalists in the tech field to talk about the tech stories. It's a wonderful chance for you to keep up on what's going on with tech, plus be educated entertained by some very bright and fun minds. I hope you'll tune in every Sunday for This Week in Tech.

Leo Laporte [03:12:29]:
Just go to your favorite podcast client and subscribe. This Week in Tech from the TWiT Network.

Paris Martineau [03:12:34]:
Thank you.

Leo Laporte [03:12:35]:
I'm not a human being, not into this animal scene.

Paris Martineau [03:12:36]:
I'm an intelligent machine.