Intelligent Machines 825 transcript
Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show
0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Our guests this week. Richard Gingras just retired as Vice President of News at Google. We'll talk about the future of news, ai, slop and more plus. A show that just never ends, but it's full of goodness, including sinkholes and evil clowns and all sorts of stuff. Cheese there's cheese. Next stay here. Podcasts you love Evil, clowns and all sorts of stuff.
0:00:25 - AI
Cheese there's cheese Next Stay here Podcasts you love From people you trust.
0:00:37 - Leo Laporte
This is Twit. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, episode 825. Recorded Wednesday, june 25th 2025. The evil clown of Middletown. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we talk about the latest in AI, robotics and all those little smart thingamajiggers surrounding us everywhere. There's one behind me, one there, one there, one there, surrounding us everywhere. There's one behind me, one there, one there, one there With the wonderful professor of journalistic innovation at the Emeritus at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York, aka Jeff Jarvis. Hello Jeff, hello there, boss, how are you Now at the fine SUNY Stony Brook and the Montclair State University? Author of what Would Google Do? Private Parts. I'm going back in time now, Jeff?
0:01:31 - Paris Martineau
Oh, you're going back there. Yeah, I know the Gutenberg Parenthesis.
0:01:33 - Leo Laporte
I didn't bring over the the Web we Weave, oh there they are. Also here newly wired Paris Martineau, who is sweltering in New.
0:01:45 - Paris Martineau
York City. It's a heat wave. We had multiple mini tornadoes in New York. A 50-foot tree fell in my backyard, taking out approximately five backyards.
0:01:56 - Leo Laporte
Was the tree named Andrew Cuomo.
0:01:58 - Paris Martineau
No, but that tree also did suffer a large blow to his ego and self. This week it's been a sweltering week in many ways wow.
0:02:08 - Leo Laporte
Well, you've earned a beer and I'm going to give you official dispensation, given that the heat, anytime the heat rises, you know I took this out of the beer thing, being like, yeah, it'll seem not obvious I'm drinking a beer.
0:02:21 - Paris Martineau
And then I held it up there. I was like, no, that's a beer, I drinking a beer. And then I held it up to the camera. I was like, no, that's a beer. I recognize a beer. I'm having exactly one beer. It's very hot outside. I'm going to be entirely normal.
0:02:30 - Leo Laporte
I am completely happy. Great, we have a great guest. He's actually been on the show before. Richard Gingras is here. Last time when Richard was on, he was vice president of news at Google. He is no longer in that position. He has moved on, Richard well he's emeritus now. Emeritus just moved on. Welcome.
0:02:54 - Richard Gingras
It's great to have you, Richard. It's good to be here. In fact, I am consuming a bit of artificial intelligence.
0:03:03 - Paris Martineau
Is that computronium?
0:03:03 - Leo Laporte
you have in there. It looks like more like cider than beer, but uh richard is a specialist at cocktails you should know a good bourbon oh, now we're talking. All right, so far, so good. We're half the half the panel's drunk and the rest of us are catching our old so, jeff, why don't you introduce richard and tell us a little bit about him, because I know you know him well so, uh, last time richard and I were on the same flight, uh, the, uh.
0:03:37 - Paris Martineau
The flight attendant came up and and said oh, you're brothers.
0:03:42 - Paris Martineau
Okay, I wasn't gonna say it because I thought it sounded offensive, just because you're both white men with glasses, white hair and beards. But I've been thinking it the entire time, especially because you guys are right next to each other on my zoom screen and I'm like it's like looking in a strange mirror it is it is so we are brothers.
0:04:05 - Paris Martineau
For a long time headed up um salon loved salon, but still love salon yeah, on on early. Uh. Internet access service called which one? Was it Richard um?
0:04:20 - Richard Gingras
not excited, oh god, I mean excite before that.
0:04:24 - Leo Laporte
Uh, e-world, e-world, yeah apple's uh very interesting kind of uh it's almost skeuomorphic, village, village-based uh internet service. I liked e-world, actually, that's right and then for the last, how many years were you at google the e-guy about 15 so 15 years at google as vice president of news wow and has had all kinds of things there.
0:04:49 - Paris Martineau
Guy at Google, you're the e-guy About 15. So 15 years at Google as vice president of news Wow, and has had all kinds of things there and has been a really great friend of journalism and news, starting the Google News Initiative, starting all kinds of other Well, the Trust Project, really.
0:05:04 - Leo Laporte
The Trust Project outside of Google as well, still involved in some of this.
0:05:08 - Paris Martineau
Yes, and Google News Geist, which is when we journalism wonks get together to complain about the state of the world and try to fix it and all kinds of things, and so I'm delighted that Richard's here, and now that he's no longer officially an employee of Google, he's unleashed and so we can talk about anything. No comms there.
0:05:29 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, when was your last day? Was this a recent departure?
0:05:33 - Richard Gingras
My last day officially was last Friday.
0:05:36 - Paris Martineau
Wow, so you're fresh off the Google boat. How does it feel Fresh?
0:05:42 - Richard Gingras
It feels, it feels absolutely fine.
0:05:44 - Leo Laporte
Um, um, I miss my admin that's a very googly response in some ways, you're leaving at a kind of a critical juncture, because news is now faced, I think, with even more existential threats than ever, thanks to AI and AI slop. And yet it's more important we need news, we need reliable, authoritative, authoritative news. More authoritarian you were going to say Well, we have authoritarian, we need more authoritative news than ever. What is your prognosis for the future of news? What is your?
0:06:25 - Richard Gingras
prognosis for the future of news. I mean, I think we can have a very good future of news, but I think it really requires all of us in the profession to really step back which the profession has been kind of reluctant to do over the years and really kind of assess the situation and see what we can do to work ourselves forward. And see what we can do to work ourselves forward. And I think there's a lot we can and should do, whether that's with regard to re-earning trust or understanding how best we evolve, what news can be in this different digital environment, figuring out savvy business models that don't rely on philanthropy, figuring out smart uses of AI and there are many smart uses of AI. So I have great reasons for optimism, but we have to take those steps forward. And, by the way, I'm no longer at Google, but I'm very actively involved in several endeavors that are very much targeted on exactly what I'm talking about.
0:07:25 - Leo Laporte
Can you tell us about those?
0:07:27 - Richard Gingras
Yes, two. One is an effort which Jeff is aware of. About a year and a half two years ago, I, with a few others, put together a global research institute that I think likes to think of itself as a think tank for the role of journalism in society, the role of the free press and the open Internet in society, and it looks at everything from public policy questions around the world, which are very challenging as governments recognize the impact of the Internet and want to control it, to how do we think through matters of trust and AI and business models. So that's one area Marty Barron's on the board, maria Ressa, headed by the executive directors, amy Mitchell, who for two decades headed research at Pew so great people trying to help people with more additional thinking and research on those questions.
And then the second, which I'm very excited about, is in the area of local news, where I've been there too, working hard to figure out how do we rethink what local news can be in a community, and a singular company that I've identified in my work around the world is a company out of Canada called Village Media, which is doing that extraordinarily well, rethinking every component. How do we strengthen the communities, how do we drive their engagement and does so commercially, sustainably, entirely with local advertising, and so I've become chairman of the board of Village Media and will work with them to expand that model. And there too great reasons to be hopeful, but it does require stepping back and saying let's kind of take this down to the studs and rebuild it with new thinking appropriate to our time and place there's all.
0:09:13 - Leo Laporte
Is there a trust crisis? Because I think those of us who consume news increasingly, even with the journal of record I know jeff is less than happy with the New York Times Feel like maybe we can't trust what we're reading, that there's an angle. Or you know, we have a wonderful speaking of local newspapers. Local newspaper in town that was family run for years has now been purchased by a private equity firm and immediately my reaction is well, I guess I can't trust it anymore.
0:09:43 - Richard Gingras
Yes, we do have can't trust it anymore. Yes, we do have a huge trust issue with news and, not surprisingly, nor is it new. For that matter, you're right. I mean, if you kind of look at the history of how things evolved, you know one of the key the ability for people to communicate with each other, to express themselves. You know the expansion of the marketplace for publishing and information. It becomes more difficult, it becomes more fragmented, becomes more polarized. It didn't start with the internet. I mean, in truth, as Jeff knows, it started with Gutenberg. But if you look at, you know electronic communications. Look what happened?
with television and cable in the United States and you started to see more partisan news outlets, right? So you know why would we even wonder whether there's a trust issue in news. In fact, my core concern about it is often people say, when they hear that you'll hear journalists say well, we need to. We need more media literacy to tell people that they can trust journalism. And I go like but that's absurd. Journalism isn't monolithic. There are great sources, there are bad sources. So how do they identify them and how the sources themselves? How do news institutions again rethink our approach to re-earn that trust? I think there's a tremendous amount of arrogance in journalism. There's a tremendous amount of assumption that we know the answers, when the answers aren't necessarily knowable and, frankly, the audiences are smart enough to call us on that. So I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done there and we have to stop pointing fingers at others as solutions to our problems.
0:11:26 - Leo Laporte
The days of Edward R Murrow and the Tiffany Network, you know, news was seen as a prestige product and the fact that news lost money was not a cause for concern. Cbs made plenty of money in other places. I mean Jack Benny or whatever it was Milton Berle, jack Benny or whatever it was Milton Berle. But I think more and more we're in an environment where people like Jeff Bezos are coming in to rescue the Washington Post. It looks like news is not because it's not fundamentally profitable. Warner Brothers is spinning off CNN because they see it as a sinking ship, same with MSNBC spinning off cnn because they see it as a sinking ship, same with msnbc.
0:12:12 - Paris Martineau
Um, I think the the crisis is news is no longer a prestige product and and nobody is willing to fund it. I would push back a little bit on that. I think that the problem isn't that news is fundamentally like unprofitable and no one wants to fund it. I think it's just that mass market uh advertising supported media that's target audience is everyone that has a cell phone is a fundamentally flawed concept yeah, we're going to get henry blodgett on, I think in future weeks I'll ask him about that. Uh, yeah well, that's a good question is news profitable?
0:12:43 - Leo Laporte
can news be profitable? Should it be profitable? Should?
0:12:45 - Richard Gingras
it be profitable? It certainly can be profitable and people are proving that. I mean, I think one of the dynamics of the Toronto I mean Village Media, the company I mentioned is profitable in every one of its markets. You know, obviously the New York Times is profitable, so it's not by any means impossible for there to be commercially successful sources.
I think one of the problems we have in this space is, given the disruption, you have both the legacy players on one side who have been frankly, almost irresponsibly incapable of innovating in this period, and particularly now they're owned by hedge funds, they don't have any particular interest in the news business outside of harvesting the assets. And then on the emerging side, sadly, you have a lot of folks who are trying to do the right, noble thing, but they've been led to believe there is no commercial future. Philanthropy will save their bacon, as it were, and allow them to continue to do news that they always did and be successful, and that's incorrect. But again, we have to kind of stop with that notion that it can't be successful and start going deep with quite frankly, rigorous business tactics to say, well, where's the opportunity in the market? What's the right business model that'll fit what I'm trying to do?
0:14:10 - Paris Martineau
Back to Leo's question about AI. He asked the challenge of determining authority from slop. So hit both sides of that coin, of where the potential risks are with AI but where the potential uses and benefits are.
0:14:32 - Richard Gingras
You know. I mean, I personally think there's just tremendous opportunity in AI for us as individuals and, I think, for news organizations. Is there risk? Of course there is, you know, as there has been with any media environment. I think with AI it's going to come down to questions like well, what source of AI knowledge are you going to? Because there will be many, because there are many Now here too, one interesting dynamic I was going to mention this back to when you were talking about the Tiffany networks.
One of the interesting things back in the 50s and 60s and 70s, when you didn't have the proliferation of cable outlets, was these news organizations had to recognize that they couldn't just address a certain cohort of the audience. They were addressing everyone, because they had huge audiences. They didn't want to piss off one segment of the audience, and so they had a greater inclination to try to be impartial, which frankly helps lead to trust and respect across the spectrum. I think in a similar fashion now, when I look at AI, I'm much more inclined to trust the larger entities, including the Googles, because, frankly, they've got an audience of billions of people and they need the trust of all those people. They need to do it well. You know, what I am concerned about is they obviously the models coming out of nowhere, coming out of dark states, that clearly can be misused to do harm and will.
0:16:10 - Paris Martineau
Tools for journalists. I mean, when we go back, I'm finishing my my landing type book right now, and technology first affected the composing room and it was seen by the publishers only as a way to cut costs, and that's very familiar for today they're using it to cut costs. They're using it without innovation. What are some of the most innovative things you've seen news organizations do? What should they be doing? What could they be doing that they're not now or that they are now? Somebody's doing good work with them.
0:16:44 - Richard Gingras
Well, first of all, I think we need to be comfortable with the language that we use. Um, you know, and I think any publisher who goes to his newsroom and starts talking about efficiencies is not going to get the desired result. That sounds like cost cutting. You know, when I talk to newsrooms about it I talk about are you taking advantage of the superpowers that you can have by leveraging these capabilities? Right, in fact, you know, gina Chua at Semaphore told me that she once was confronted by her newsroom that was reluctant to use the AI technology that she was bringing into the newsroom. They were concerned about their jobs, and she said to them she said look, my number one, two and three priorities is to do great journalism, and I'll use every tool available to help me do that. I do not have a priority that's about saving your jobs. You obviously want to save your careers, and if you want to do that, then you need to adapt and adopt the capabilities of this technology so you, too, can have the superpowers and be better than you are today.
0:17:45 - Paris Martineau
We should have Gina on. Gina does great work at SoFort. She did a thing where she got a what do you call it the people you use on Amazon to do tasks mechanical Turk, mechanical Turk, turk where she used models to look at reports of police brutality and because there were all different forms and all different structures and there was no structure to the data to figure out, she got the models two years ago to figure out how to look at all these things and get a better account of what was happening around race and police brutality.
0:18:24 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, we need to have a palantir for journalists as opposed to a volunteer for government.
0:18:29 - Paris Martineau
I think a power care for journalists is a phrase I never thought I'd hear I guess I'm.
0:18:34 - Paris Martineau
I'm not opposed. This is a secret we're not allowed to know.
0:18:39 - Leo Laporte
This is what we're teaching jeff right is is the journalist as data scientist, it's a lot of it well into your question.
0:18:47 - Richard Gingras
I mean, there is actually no, no facet of the journalistic profession that can't be improved and enhanced by the use of ai. There's none. You know, and some of it is simple things you know. Does it help you do research? Does it help you ask questions that you might otherwise not be comfortable asking? You know, when I write things today, one of the things I do is feed it into one of the models. Do research? Does it help you ask questions that you might otherwise not be comfortable asking? You know, when I write things today, one of the things I do is feed it into one of the models and say give me positive and negative criticism of this piece. You know, help me understand if I'm phrasing it properly? Am I making the argument correctly? But if you take it into the newsroom, I mean the point about data, for instance, you know, one of the projects at Google that I was most proud of was when we did or the team in Israel is still working on this stuff when we built Pinpoint. This was five or six years ago and we were calling it machine learning. It wasn't doing the generative part, but it was all AI, which was how do I analyze 100,000 documents that I otherwise wouldn't even be able to analyze manually, to understand what's in those documents, to organize them and structure them based on known entities and dates and locations, and so on and so forth. You know, help me find the needles in the haystack. That's even more capable today with Gen AI. So you know, it can obviously help you do the investigations that you otherwise would not have even attempted. It can help you monitor beats. It can help you monitor sources of streams of data to understand anomalies.
We did a project at Google that was trying to look at could we geofence search queries to detect stories that otherwise we might not understand? And the example for that because we knew it was true was the Flint water crisis. If we had looked into search queries and we did six, eight months before the water crisis, you saw queries that said my water smells bad, my water tastes bad. Now you put those signals in front of thoughtful reporters and they go oh, maybe there's something we should be digging into on the state of the water supply and Flint. Right, that's powerful stuff and that's just. I mean there's two examples out of many with regard to the newsroom. So you know, I think any newsroom that ignores the capabilities of AI is a newsroom that's ignoring its future.
0:21:04 - Leo Laporte
Of course there's the flip side of that coin, and if I were in the news business I might worry about it. Oh, I guess I am, aren't I?
I am worried about it, which is they're increasingly individuals are going to be able to create their own personalized news feeds, and this we're already seeing this with tools that like perplexity that I like to use, which is kind of disintermediating the original source work, taking them out of the equation and giving me the results. I see a future we talked about this with Nikita Roy of personalized news and of individuals doing that. Doesn't that just put more pressure on journalistic organizations?
0:21:51 - Paris Martineau
Takes them out of the equation in some cases, except as source materials.
0:21:53 - Leo Laporte
Look, materials is very important yeah, but it doesn't pay right, it's an, it's the most expensive part of the whole thing and if and if you're not getting the hits, pits that's.
0:22:04 - Paris Martineau
That's memory lane. I mean several things there.
0:22:08 - Richard Gingras
I mean, look throughout the history of journalism, you know, even before digital and electronic, you know you would browse an array of sources and titles before you dug in. Right, you'd go to the newsstand and browse for a half hour. Maybe you'd buy one magazine, maybe you'd buy none at all. Right, that's an important and ongoing dynamic. I mean, having personalized news feeds, I think, simply helps people get exposed to more stuff. My real issue with the personalized news feeds and it's inevitable and I can't stop it is if it isn't giving you a siloed view of the reality and not exposing you to things that you should see.
You know, like when I was running, when I was running Google news, I wanted to make sure that we didn't just have the personalized for you tab, but we had a. We had a tab which I wanted to be the default, which was you know, here is our sense of what news is across the country right now Unpersonalized.
0:23:06 - Paris Martineau
Talk about the early days of Google News, because the reaction to it, the news industry wasn't sure what to do with it. It was a 20% project for somebody else, but what were the design?
0:23:20 - Leo Laporte
They had the same fears right, this fear of being removed from the equation of Google intermediating.
0:23:29 - Richard Gingras
Yeah, they did and we can talk about that. But you know, first, back to the history of Google News and that was just a bit before my time with Krishna Bharat. I mean, that came out of the shadows of 9-11. Right, it was literally in that period after 9-11. And Krishna was one who said you know, I want to understand how people are looking at this story from around the world. How do I do that? And that was really the birth of Google News. How could we take and use algorithms and K-means, clustering, to identify sources of coverage on a given topic from any place in the world and give me an option to consume those perspectives? And that's a powerful thing, continues to be a powerful thing.
I think the challenge with the news industry in this regard has been, you know, just largely self-defeating. Because what I've always said was and it it is absolutely true is that Google News, google Search, these are effectively the biggest newsstands on earth. That, by the way, publishers don't have to pay to be on. Right, you're putting the content before many more people, you're giving them more options to dig in, and they do dig in. But it is a competitive environment.
You know, I think, what publishers often don't want to acknowledge about the Internet was that it introduced massive competition at every dimension. They no longer controlled their distribution, they no longer controlled the advertising market, where they could basically hold up the three local department stores for whatever rates they wanted to ask and at least as important consumers had many, many places to go for the information that they used to get from the newspaper. I mean, it's simply what I always say. It's like. You know, the newspaper in dallas in 1985 was the internet of that community. Yeah, now we have an internet and it's a news note on the internet and I don't need to go to the Dallas morning news to find out where the movies are playing or what the stock quotes are. That's all you know. We don't do that anymore.
0:25:36 - Leo Laporte
Well, it's clearly a benefit to the consumer of news, especially if you're a smart consumer. How does it benefit the publishers, the creators of the news? Because they they're bearing the expense.
0:25:51 - Richard Gingras
It benefits them to the extent that they are a you know, truly willing to dig deep in, understand the new marketplace and figure out what products can they build that will fit that market Right. I mean, to me one of the unfortunate problems of the legacy news industry in the last 30 years of the Internet was somehow not recognizing that their success was going to have to be based on how the new marketplace worked, not their hope that somehow the internet would twist its head around and respect their products for what they were and make sure they were as successful as they always were Right. So it's not like we're finding we're not finding successes in publishing in the new environment. We are, but we're finding it from those who are willing to be innovative about finding the place in the market, build products to suit, understand user behaviors enough to present that content to them in the form in which they're willing to accept it.
0:26:56 - Leo Laporte
Give us some examples of people who are doing it right.
0:27:00 - Richard Gingras
Well, I mean, in a certain sense I'd have to look and say the New York Times is getting it right. Right, you know, we can find reason to criticize any outlet out there, but if they've been smart about growing that business, they didn't get it immediately Right. They spent 15 years before they did the innovation report and then they got really. They got really thoughtful about how they do it. They're thoughtful about how they drive subscriptions, thoughtful about how they structure their pricing and offers to get those subscribers on board. You know Mark Thompson will tell you about very interesting steps along that road that he would not have predicted. But once they kind of really turned to innovation, they started to figure these things out.
The company I mentioned in Canada at the local level is stunningly innovative at how they approach being a news outlet and not only in providing news but creating opportunities from engagement. They've created now and are rolling out in their markets a local community interest network, basically a very nicely designed Reddit for local. You know it's not about following people and posting into the bliss, into the morass. It's about following topics that I'm interested in. I'm a woodworker, I like the local music scene with curated hosts. How do I engage with people in my community, both virtually and in the real world. That's powerful and people like that. But that's innovation. That's recognizing that it's not just producing articles and somehow sticking them somewhere and hoping that enough people read them. Is there one?
0:28:37 - Leo Laporte
for more than one. I mean, one of the complaints is that, well, there's one, new York Times. We used to have a daily newspaper in every city. Is there room for more than one?
0:28:48 - Richard Gingras
move for afraid is there move for more than one newspaper in the city well, not, clearly not but I mean, is there room for more than one?
0:28:56 - Leo Laporte
maybe a newspaper in the country? Uh, it feels like, yeah, you could. You could point to the new york times, but then for every new york times there's a dozen failed local newspapers. Well, yeah, but you're talking Is it they're doing it wrong, or is it that there isn't room for them?
0:29:13 - Richard Gingras
No, but you have to. You know the information marketplace is not a singular dimension, it's many dimensions. The national environment is quite distinct from the local environment, which is quite distinct from vertical environments. But if you look at those individually, you know, obviously the New York Times has been very successful as a national vehicle. Are there room for competition for other national vehicles? Certainly, in fact we'd probably see more of that if some of them hadn't stumbled of late. But there's certainly opportunity there, um, and the models there.
And the other thing I quibble about is people who say we need to experiment with business models. The business models are known right at the national level. It's clearly going to be largely driven by subscription, and they're doing that and they're doing that effectively. What if they hit 10 million? I think they have, or they're very close to it. Um, so that's very possible.
You look at the verticals. I can tell you, around the world there are very successful verticals in everything from politics to various industry sectors. Politics is a particularly lucrative one. Look at 24-7 in Brasilia, for instance, or even Village Media's Trillium in Ontario. Those are subscription offers. They have high value content and it works quite well, I think, at the local level. There too, it's very different. And there is where I feel and where Village has proven, that advertising can still work. And it can still work because, at the community level, merchants want to be able to drive awareness of what they're doing to the people in the market they serve. And, by the way, information at that level, at that community level, advertising at that community level is information.
0:30:54 - Leo Laporte
That's been our experience, not as a local entity, but as a niche entity. It's very similar right and we are able to succeed and survive because of that.
0:31:05 - Richard Gingras
I've been doing some other pro bono work. That involved doing a massive study of the news consumption habits in Chicago local news consumption habits in Chicago and there are two key learnings in that. One was that people's information needs are proportionate to physical proximity, meaning I want to know what's going on in my neighborhood far more than I want to know what's going on in the metropolitan area. Right, in Chicago, for instance, the only topic of broad metropolitan interest is the Bears. Is sports. Right, because otherwise it's all local. And in fact, if you think through that, the Metropolitan Dailies were the ones that were most vulnerable because none of them were any longer relevant from us as a source of national news. Right, and they weren't local enough to be relevant to the communities within the metropolitan area they served. Right. And the last interesting thing in that survey was we asked a question at the end we said what motivates you to consume local news? And we gave people a bunch of options they could check.
Number one was save money Right, people want to know where are the deals in the community. Did that new restaurant not get open? Is that something my family can afford? Right. Number two is health and wellness. Number three was yeah, what's going on in my community? Number four was entertainment. What can I do this weekend? What's going on in the community park? But if you look at it from that level and analyze it from that level, then you can begin to see the opportunities that you otherwise would have ignored. If you're following the meme that somehow there's no profitable future in news, right, I mean in fact, and I'm sorry to go on here, but you know, one challenge among the emerging players in the United States is often they were founded by journalists coming out of newsrooms very noble. What they want to do is the serious accountability journalism, but they don't understand the business. They think philanthropy will support them forever and, as I joke, they would rather eat worms than go to a local merchant and sell an ad, that's a good point, I like it.
0:33:18 - Paris Martineau
So in your 15 years at Google, I know that it's always been an artificial intelligence machine learning company, but there was a distinguished moment. Google, I know that it's always been an artificial intelligence machine learning company, but there was a distinguished moment that, to the outside world, google became an AI company and I always saw a change. What was that like on the inside? When did you see that we're not just a search company, we're not just an ad company. We're going to present ourselves as an AI company.
0:33:48 - Richard Gingras
Well, it was both gradual and sudden, from my perspective, anyways, where I sat, it was gradual along the way because we all knew, because Google is a very open and transparent company internally, at least it long has been.
So you knew what was going on. You knew the work that Jeff Dean was doing with neural networks and machine learning and so on, and you knew this was something significant and big. And at the product level, again, we were doing things like pinpoint, we were beginning to apply the technology and we knew that it was big. But I think the big switch was, as you know, was Google being appropriately cautious given its size and position and the reputation it needed to be protected, was much more cautious about going out with a language model, and ChatGPT jumped out there first, even though it wasn't ready for prime time, but nonetheless they did and they obviously captured a fair amount of imagination, and that's what obviously triggered the next big shift at Google, which was okay, they've dropped the flag. Now is the time for us to put every effort we can, every dollar we have, against becoming an AI company, an AI solutions company.
0:35:15 - Paris Martineau
Because Google had its model. Yeah, what was the? Was it shock that OpenAI went out there with something that was rough? Or was it a sense of there's a new company and we're already an old one? Or what was that reaction like?
0:35:37 - Richard Gingras
I think it was more of a first than the latter. I think it was a bit of a surprise, but then again, if you thought through it, you know, I remember, you know when it happened, you know we were surprised because we had the models and they were testing the models and they knew that there were flaws. I mean, one of the things with language models is, you know, besides the fact that, as you know, it's not just training the language model, all the necessary grounding that you need to put in place such that the language model is actually coming up with sound answers based on facts and authoritative content. A, that takes time and B, there is no replacement for the big lab in testing. You just can't pose enough queries to know where the flaws are.
Unfortunately, that only happens when you go out public. So Jad to be did that. Now it was also clear to me that you know that was obviously a smart move on their part. They could take the risks and, more importantly, they knew that we could not take the risks. So kind of a slick move on their part take the risks.
0:36:52 - Leo Laporte
So kind of a slick move on their part. It's a fascinating competitive story that has yet to be fully written but will be, I'm sure, at some point. So I like your thought that national can be supported by subscription, local by advertising. I think that makes a lot of sense. We're a niche product, also a lot of sense. We're a niche product, also advertising supported, although we're playing with subscriptions as well. Um, and I mean you know, the information is proven. Wall street journal has proven that subscription, the subscription model for people who get value out of the content, is very viable. Uh, people are willing to pay for something that's going to make them money, especially um. So there are some models out there.
I just, I feel like AI slop is an avalanche that might be difficult to transcend for the few people who are doing it right. Maybe we do still have to get an intelligent consumer news. Consumer.
0:37:48 - Richard Gingras
Yeah, but at the same time that we're getting AI slop, we're getting increasingly capable AI systems which can both counter that slop with quality content and can be used to detect and assess the slop that's out there.
0:38:02 - Leo Laporte
You know, I mean sometimes we miss the point that they can use the AI language model to actually assess the AI language model yeah, I think I, I I know at the beginning you said we can't expect uh, consumers to become better news consumers, but I think ultimately that's going to be a source of success for people is the ability to, to find a way to get information, especially information outside their own. You know, filter bubble and use it appropriately and I think news. There's an opportunity for news there, but it does require kind of a more sophisticated reader.
0:38:42 - Richard Gingras
I hope they exist and I think and by the way, I, I, I, I didn't say there was no hope in training consumers to do this. What I said was don't count on. It was was no, is that? Don't think you can overcome the trust problem by teaching people that they should trust us, right, right, I mean, when has it ever been effective? Trust me, yeah, trust me. I actually slip on, flip on the other side and say you bet.
0:39:09 - Leo Laporte
Why are you saying that, yeah?
0:39:11 - Richard Gingras
so that's my point, yeah, but on the other hand, I mean what I think is to me one of the the extraordinary dynamic about language models that I keep coming back to, both in my own behavior and others, is the extraordinary value of non-judgmental learning, you know is is the fact that I can ask it questions that I would be embarrassed to ask others.
you know one of the bits of research I looked at at google. We had done a lot of the early work on fact checks and we were were assessing like, well, where were, how effective were fact checks in different kinds of environments say a social network versus search and one of the things that came out of that was on social networks, fact checks are not effective because, basically, you end up challenging the social construct of the user. Right, you put up a fact check next to a post put up by your uncle and basically telling you your uncle was a fool, right, you're going to kind of go into a defensive crouch, right? But with search, search is a very private experience where you will go to search and ask it a question that you would not ask your spouse and and that's powerful, absolutely.
And I think that's true of language models in spades, yeah Right, and I think that's true of all of us. I mean, I learn more faster today with language models than I ever did before, because I can do that and I can keep probing, and it's easy to keep probing and easy to learn more. And you know, does that not have a powerful effect on our younger generations as they come forward? You know, if we give them any kind of reasonable guidance and make sure that they're actually going to answer engines that you know are more likely to be authoritative, then what a wonderful thing, because they not only get the knowledge, you stimulate them to want more of it.
0:41:07 - Paris Martineau
Paris you were. I was going to say I'm curious what your daily AI. Are there any AI tools that you find yourself going back to or any that are kind of in your weekly routine?
0:41:20 - Richard Gingras
Oh yeah, all the time, I mean constantly.
0:41:23 - Paris Martineau
Which ones, and for very myriad uses. What products do you like?
0:41:25 - Richard Gingras
I'm primarily using the major ones. I use Gemini primarily. I use ChatGPT sometimes. I use it often just for comparison purposes. I'll do Claude, I'll do ChatGPT, I'll do Gemini, just to see if they're particularly different in the answers they give.
0:41:46 - Paris Martineau
What sort of questions are you typically asking? On just anything.
0:41:50 - Leo Laporte
Those are private Paris.
0:41:51 - Paris Martineau
Okay. No, I'm not asking you to like any very specific things, I'm just curious.
0:41:57 - Richard Gingras
I'll give you a couple of various ones. I mean and again, some of these are completely mundane yeah, I was reading a book. I'm reading a book called Plato and the Tyrant. You know about the philosophers and Dionysus and the whole. You know that area which sounds terribly intellectual, but it's actually quite interesting and fun. And you know, and I just wanted to understand, like, how were they writing these things? They had wax tablets and were like what? You know what scrolls existed, what were they on? I could go and say what were the scrolls in Syracuse that Dionysus was reading from, what were they made of? I came back and told me papyrus. It would have taken me a long time to search for that. That's a simple thing. Two things that I found really fun lately Not fun, but really satisfying. One is my youngest daughter just bought a house in astoria, queens, um, and it has a rental unit that they can put out. And I said to gemini I said prepare a manual for me for a first-time new york landlord oh wow.
He came back with a wonderful six-page comprehensive document saying here are all the things you need to know and look into. Right, how powerful is that? Secondly, recently I was in Norway, had to speak at an event in Norway and I decided I wanted to spend an extra three days renting a car, driving around with drones because I do a lot of drone stuff, video stuff and so I went to Gemini. It was a late decision. I said I'm going to land in Oslo. I have three days. I want to stop in Bergen. I want to end up in Lillehammer. Please give me options for scenic drives, give me two other places where I should spend the night. And, by the way, I'm taking my drones. And it came back with just an extraordinarily helpful, detailed plan for me. I did the whole trip plan in about 90 minutes, including booking the hotels.
0:43:58 - Leo Laporte
But you understand that that information probably came from a variety of guides like Fodor's, and that those people who generated the information originally have been disenfranchised well, yes and no.
0:44:08 - Richard Gingras
It is obviously learning from the, you know, from the collective knowledge that's been expressed out there fair enough through that when we put up uh uh kindness traveler online in um 1997, uh, where we were trying to cannibalize ourselves because others were going to. Yeah, I mean, look, there are all kinds of interesting topics out of just that right.
0:44:38 - Leo Laporte
No, and as a consumer of information, this is a paradise right, and this is, in fact, google's mission to organize the world's information and make it paradise right. And this is, in fact, google's mission to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. There is no better way to do it than these, these, you know, chat bots. It's been amazing, but I just worry about the people who create the information and and, and you know what do they do, and I guess that's what we've been talking about is uh yeah, as a consumer of information, I'm in.
0:45:08 - Paris Martineau
I'm in heaven but now you get to hear from the restaurants consumers consider where that information came from, so that we don't run out sorry, I didn't mean to, but you also can now hear from 20 people who live in Lillehammer.
0:45:21 - Leo Laporte
True, as opposed to the person who goes through for two days it's not corporatized, it could very well be from yeah, real people, yeah that's right.
0:45:29 - Richard Gingras
I mean, in a lot of this stuff, as it's collecting knowledge, it's not like, yeah, it's only going to photos at all but that just means it's the cult of the amateur.
0:45:37 - Leo Laporte
Now, right that? It's uh that the right? No, because no professionals will do it anymore, because there's no money in it.
0:45:44 - Richard Gingras
Well, I don't know if that's true. I think it depends, and I think also, in some of those areas they obviously are putting in references to where this came from. You can click and go deeper and go to Rick Steves and so on and so forth. Are we going to winnowing of the publishing environment in certain areas? Certainly, but I'd also have to point out that the web has become a classic tragedy of the commons, right, right, I mean, my kind of favorite example today is recipe queries. Right, right, you do a recipe query.
I just want to find out, give me the recipe for cornbread, and I got a bunch of recipe sites that insist on giving me the history of the knife and the fork in corn and how the corn was ground.
0:46:30 - Paris Martineau
And you know the author's personal relationship with corn.
0:46:33 - Richard Gingras
Precisely, you know, and the list of the ingredients is like a mile down.
0:46:38 - Leo Laporte
Well, that's because the recipe has become commoditized.
0:46:41 - Paris Martineau
I will say, that's also Google's fault in the sense that those places are optimizing for Google to rank higher in the Google search results. But I suppose now they'll be optimizing to be included in an AI search.
0:46:55 - Richard Gingras
Well, you're right and you're wrong. I mean, you say it's Google's fault. You say it's Google's fault. What they're playing off of was their recognition that Google, in assessing the quality of a site, values time on site, and that's why they're doing that. Right, it gives them time on site and, by the way, it gives them a whole lot more real estate to show ads. More ads yep, all right. Now, of course, google isn't stupid either. Right, because we'll come up with other, more detailed metrics that kind of give us a sense of abandonment and in the recipe category, you'd probably get to know the math that says ah, all of these people are going to suffer a mile long scroll and as soon as they get a half mile down, we're going to recognize that's not really good time on site at all.
0:47:41 - Leo Laporte
Right? No, and that's why I use a recipe tool to extract the recipe, so I don't have to read the prose and I no longer see any of it. So final question, because we got.
0:47:54 - Richard Gingras
We got it on recipes. If I might, where might we be two years from now, you know? Uh, yes, I'll get the. I'll get the pound cake recipe. Right up at the top You'll see a winnowing. So there are far less of these nonsense sites just looking to scam off the off the Internet. But if I do want you know other variations on the pound cake recipe, those results will be there and hopefully there'll be the remaining sites that actually have built loyal audiences.
0:48:22 - Leo Laporte
They'll be the remaining sites that actually have built loyal audiences. Well, in fact, for my sourdough recipes, I found a site that I've really found to trust and they have a subscription and I'm subscribed to it. So it is. You're absolutely right. There is, there is an option.
0:48:35 - Paris Martineau
You're subscribing to a sourdough recipe site the perfect loaf. It's very good, so it has other other bread.
0:48:43 - Leo Laporte
Many other recipes other than sourdough but they're mostly sourdough but you found your bagel recipe yes, as a matter of fact, uh, and so it was worth it. So one of the things that has come up, uh and of course you've got new york times suing open, ai, you've got disney now serving mid journey is and we've talked about this is it seems likely that their real end game in talked about this is it seems likely that their real end game in all of this is to get licensing fees. How do you, where do you, stand on the idea of ai licensing news and information well.
0:49:13 - Richard Gingras
So first of all, um, you know, I thought the results of the anthropic suit which came out yesterday, um were quite smart and what I had hoped would occur yeah, the judge.
0:49:24 - Leo Laporte
the judge basically said it's okay, it's reading books as long as you acquire them properly then it's fair use. It wasn't legal to store them, but it was legal to read them.
0:49:34 - Paris Martineau
It wasn't legal to take them when they weren't pirated.
0:49:38 - Richard Gingras
Yeah, it wasn't about storage. It was the fact that they were pirated but obviously confirmed that we have a right to learn and the computers we use have a right to learn. Right, you know, when it comes to copyright, I'm very much in the camp of Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was the creator of his day, right Wrote the Declaration of Independence, was a great inventor.
0:50:02 - Leo Laporte
Wrote a Bible without so much God in it. Yes, Right.
0:50:07 - Richard Gingras
And he believed that. He said that patents and copyright was an insult to an advanced civilization. Oh, wow.
That he understood. Within a practical degree, it made sense to reward the creator, but ultimately you needed to reward the society with the knowledge. So you know he would roll over in his grave. When you look at copyright and patent today and see that on the one hand, drugs get seven years and authors get life of the author plus 70. Nothing's going into the public domain going into the public domain. So you know we wisely, I hope we won't see copyright change such that we can continue to learn, we can glean the facts for the benefit of everyone. I think the other thing we need to recognize is that all creativity is derivative. That's right.
We learn from people before us. So I find it kind of amusing when you hear of a well-known, hugely popular, millionaire novelist complaining about LLM's learning from his work. And I want to go wait a second. Are you writing checks on a regular basis to the Tolstoy Family Foundation? What about your high school English teacher? You didn't come born into this world as a successful novelist. It's derivative.
You know, there there are what nine classic story types that all of you work off of all the time. What means that somehow you get to own one? Yeah, so you know we need to be smart about copyright. Will there be licensing? To your point, there will be licensing for grounding, but I think it's going to be depend very much on the type of content you're talking about and does it have? You know? Is it? Is it? Uh? Does it have particular value because it's not easily found? Does it have particular value because it can be applied to something that will generate further value?
So to your point about travel queries as an example, right, google understands the value of a travel query quite well, and a travel query is worth a whole lot more than a news query. So in coming up with advanced solutions of using AI to satisfy people's travel needs. I can assure you that if there's a need for proprietary content or content from fedors, or content from those who do mass aggregation of hotel availabilities and so on, that will get licensed because it makes sense to do so. But in other areas it will make it makes sense to do so, but in other areas it will make much less sense to do so. You know, in areas of news, when I look at it from google's perspective, you know where we're always being challenged for bias or presumably having an editorial perspective is. You know it was always in our best defense to have to present a diverse array of sources and let the user decide. So I think with LLMs we would be unwise to give fulsome, detailed answers without noting the various perspectives that are coming from others.
0:53:18 - Leo Laporte
It reassures people too. It adds to trust. Yeah, yeah precisely.
0:53:24 - Richard Gingras
You know, I mean, I always believe that, you know, to me, journalism is giving people the information they need to be informed citizens.
I always felt that our role at Google was to give people the tools and point them to the sources of information such that they could be informed citizens, and do that in a, you know, in assiduously apolitical fashion, which is the way it has to be done. So, you know, I think, frankly, a lot of the focus on AI in those regards has to be like how do we, how do we, hone impartial language? I mean, I think news organizations should be thinking about that as well. But I don't want to divert from the licensing point. My last point on the licensing is, when I talk to publishers, particularly news publishers as you go, say, yeah, there may be licensing, but if you think there's a golden part of cash at the end of the LLM rainbow, then you're wrong Really, because, first of all, the news content doesn't have much commercial value. We're in an extremely competitive environment with multiple answer engines and I can assure you the margins are not going to be found in the category of news.
0:54:27 - Leo Laporte
Interesting, interesting. Richard, it's been such a pleasure. We've overstayed our welcome, but I thank you for giving us some extra time. Richard Gingras, you're not retired. Shouldn't use the word retired.
Former emeritus vice president of news at Google. Very good, I'd love to have you back soon. I really appreciate your thoughts and I think the balance is fantastic, because I think, on the one hand, we all, as users of news, have a lot to gain, but we don't want to put news out of business either, because that's important too, so there's got to be some balanced way of doing no, I, I I very much appreciate that and you know that's it.
0:55:07 - Richard Gingras
I'm not done because obviously we've got some significant challenges in front of us. But I do see solutions, I do see constructive paths, good, and I'm eager and willing to work with anyone, frankly, who, who recognizes that. But we just have to stop pointing fingers and say you know, everything would be like if social networks didn't exist. We wouldn't have the social, the political problems we have today. That's a misreading of our world and of the nature of media and of the nature of human beings.
0:55:37 - Leo Laporte
I agree 100 percent.
0:55:39 - Paris Martineau
Thank you, Richard, Thank you.
0:55:40 - Leo Laporte
Richard, Really appreciate your time. Great to see you again. Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Richard, Really appreciate your time. Great to see you again. Thank you. When we come back, more intelligent machine news, this portion of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Storyblock. Now this is intelligent.
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0:59:13 - Paris Martineau
how many punches did you throw? Did you break one or two computer screens?
0:59:17 - Leo Laporte
no, it was you know what. So three, he's got a bad rap. He's a nice guy I've always liked jason I think he's a nice guy. Anyway, he's an investor in this created by humans. It's an ai rights licensing platform for books sponsored by the uh authors guild, but I think it's interesting.
0:59:41 - Paris Martineau
It's called created by humans. I thought you were describing it as created by humans. Think it's interesting it's called created by humans. I thought you were describing it as created by humans.
0:59:45 - Leo Laporte
No, it's literally created by humans. Dot AI.
0:59:49 - Paris Martineau
Okay, yeah, that but what he?
0:59:50 - Leo Laporte
but he did say something interesting and it was funny because this was before the anthropic decision came out. He said no, the courts are going to absolutely uphold the copyright of these publishers. And in fact I said, because we've had Kathy Gellis on so many times I've said you know, remember that right to read the First Amendment and in fact that's what happened. A judge has backed in.
1:00:12 - Paris Martineau
I do this constantly.
1:00:14 - Leo Laporte
Yeah Well, you said something also interesting, which is there isn't a gold mine in these AIs.
1:00:19 - Paris Martineau
So these dreams of a gold mine and licensing fees and there is for big publishers who get bought out, so they don't litigate or legislate. But that doesn't do anything to actually buy content. The rest training, right. It doesn't do anything for the rest of the ecosystem, right. I mean in anthropic they bought literally millions of dollars of books.
1:00:38 - Leo Laporte
They so this is what happened they bought books and scanned them. There was a lawsuit brought against it only just done that by three authors, including andrea bartz, who accused of stealing her work to train claude judge william alsop, a name. You will recognize these guys. It's funny, is it like there are five judges in the whole country? They all seem to to get? I don't know.
1:01:03 - Paris Martineau
They've got a really busy schedule.
1:01:06 - Leo Laporte
And this is important Anthropics use. He defended that this was fair use. Anthropics use of the author's books was not just transformative, which is one of the tests for fair use exceedingly transformative. They don't copy the text, they tokenize it and save a version that's not even human readable.
1:01:27 - Paris Martineau
The important point that he made was yes, in a sense you could say it memorizes it, but in tokenizing it there's software between that repository and the queries. Right, it's not a, it's not a direct um recall they.
1:01:42 - Leo Laporte
They were facing a potentially up to 150 000 per copyrighted book. Um, now, this is where they did get in trouble. They also hold seven million pirated books in the central library. Um judge also brought. Like any reader aspiring to be I love this. This is exactly what richard was saying like any reader aspiring to be a writer, anthropics llms, trained upon works not to race ahead and replicate or supplant them, but to turn a hard corner and create something different. Now one of the arguments benito raises, and a lot of people raise, is yeah, but these are prof. This isn't an individual reading a book, this is a profit making company reading a book.
Alcib goes on to say if this training, creating a profit out of that, out of that yeah also, so that's right well, well, if I'm so, that's what we're doing, right now so did andrea bart. I'm not a company, I'm a person. She decided to write a novel people have different rights than company but.
1:02:44 - Paris Martineau
But the part of what the judge says, though, is that it's not as if you can say well, you can use it just like a book, but you, oh no, you can't, you must use.
1:02:52 - Paris Martineau
There there is no second you, because that second you is an it oh, that was profound paris that was.
1:03:01 - Paris Martineau
Can I make a t-shirt out of that? Yeah?
1:03:03 - Paris Martineau
there is no second you because that second, you is it. People read that t-shirt and their eyes will just roll back in their head and get stuck there well, of course, this is just one can't explain it. I just wear one lawsuit but it is.
1:03:20 - Leo Laporte
It did go in the direction that kathy gellis talked about. It did go. You know they said you can't, you got to buy the books, you can't pirate them, which I've talked about too.
1:03:28 - Paris Martineau
I've always. There's three points here. One is that training the systems, if that's what it does, is, in my view, very transformative. That's a different issue from how you require the content, and if you acquire it wrongly, you're going to be in trouble. And then the third issue, which this case does not deal with explicitly, is that if you quote it at length, if you seem to plagiarize it in some way, that's a different issue as well.
1:03:53 - Leo Laporte
Well, the judge was very clear that that's not what happened here, that they were not copying the books with the intent of supplanting the books or of quoting the books.
1:04:04 - Paris Martineau
What's interesting is that, in terms of the books they bought, they bought millions of dollars. I don't know how many. That's licensing bookstore. Well, when you buy a book, you get I can do what I want with it. That's why I can sell it to a used bookstore. Right, Right, I can.
So so they bought them on mass and then destroyed all those. The problem. But that's all fair use, that's all fine. The problem comes in with the Books 3 and the others. And they acquired them and it appears they kind of knew that was wrong. That's why they bought the books. But they didn't get rid of the books three and stuff. They left it in their corporate library and other engineers could read them. So it only extended the sin and so there'll be a next phase of this that will determine the penalties here. But to some extent he said it could be mitigated by the fact that they on the individual books. No, that they bought it later doesn't make any difference. They've still stole it one time but still their intent seems to have been better and they tried these other things.
The end of the um. There's a good summary at the very end of the of the um uh paper itself. I put it up or I said. I said you actually sent you email of it annotated oh well, let me pull up my email am I included on this email?
1:05:27 - Paris Martineau
I didn't get. Yes, I did. Are you sure you used my?
1:05:30 - Paris Martineau
correct email.
1:05:31 - Paris Martineau
Oh you know, what I probably just put in whatever it said when it said paris, I was gonna say because I wasn't on the other annotated one, and I love nothing more than a jeff annotated it's not really annotated, it's just marked up I I just like seeing your little scratchy handwriting.
1:05:45 - Leo Laporte
She likes Professor Jarvis's markup.
1:05:48 - Paris Martineau
I do. I really. That is something I miss about being in school is a professor's weird.
1:05:54 - Leo Laporte
It is a shame that they destroyed those books. That's what Google did, by the way, in its book scanning effort. They did, they had to to scan.
1:06:00 - Paris Martineau
And he makes a big point about Google that they were very careful to make sure that you wouldn't use it past these points. Right, and he referred to all these cases. If you go to the very end of it, Leo, I marked things in red.
1:06:09 - Leo Laporte
Wow, that's a lot of pages, holy cow. There we go. Are these your second?
1:06:14 - Paris Martineau
scratch. Yes, there we go there we go yeah.
1:06:24 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's what. I summarize it all if you go up a little bit. All right, all four of them here we go one the copies go ahead. We're fair use. The technology at issue was among the most transformative ways many of us will see in our lifetimes.
1:06:31 - Paris Martineau
Stay there for a second. Stay there for a second. I think that's a misuse of transformative in the context. Transformative means whether you're transforming the work. He's talking about the technology being transformative, which is true. It's transformative in our lives, but that's not relevant to the issues.
1:06:47 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, but can you think of a way that's even? I mean it's as if you encrypted the books, you know it's. It's turning it into something not human readable. Yes, so I think he may meet. I mean we can debate what he meant, but I think we he might be making a little pun, it's both it was absolutely turned into a non-human readable form which was very transformative.
1:07:08 - Paris Martineau
It wasn't a painting of the book, and it was highly transformative. Yes, but it's also transformative. It might be a transformative technology. So maybe the judge maybe he's got a little humor there.
1:07:20 - Leo Laporte
The copies used to convert purchased print library copies into digital library copies were justified too, though for a different, fair use huh, this is where you go through the four factors of fair use.
1:07:32 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, probably too much for our head strokes, blood right yeah, there's a lot of.
1:07:35 - Leo Laporte
There's four tests for fair use. One is transformative. One is you don't make a profit. Uh, I can't remember what the other ones are. On balance, as the purchase print copy was destroyed and its digital replacement was not redistributed, this was fair use, so that's by the way. That is a very important determination this is fair use.
1:07:57 - Paris Martineau
That's huge. This is absolutely huge, um, and and I think it has interesting Well, why don't you go through the other two?
1:08:05 - Leo Laporte
He then says the pirated copies used to build a central library not fair use and they are going to. The trial will continue on those grounds. They will go to trial on that. As for any copies made from central library copies but not used for training, this ordinance does not grant summary judgment for anthropics so he's not throwing the case out. The case will continue on that grant and if you go below, I think there's one. But they did grant summary judgment for anthropic saying the training was fair use. The print to digital format change fair use for a different reason. It's just the pirated copies Keep going.
That anthropic later scroll if you would bought an anthropic later bought a copy of the book it earlier stole off. The internet will not absolve it of liability for theft, but it may affect the extent of statutory damages. That will be determined in the in the trial, the later trial so what's interesting here is?
1:09:03 - Paris Martineau
there's lots of interesting here, but what I wonder to go to Wait a minute.
1:09:06 - Leo Laporte
Did he use an auto pen to sign this? Oh, that's just bad. Yeah.
1:09:13 - Paris Martineau
That's just a joke. That's human, yeah.
1:09:15 - Leo Laporte
That's just a timely joke. I think that's huge. That's it. I don't know if that's the first judgment.
1:09:29 - Paris Martineau
There have been others, but they've been more limited in their scope, so I think this is a huge case. What's interesting to go to benito's argument is whether or not you can restrict who uses it. In what way. Like, if I put something like here's, here's my question is robotstxt a enforceable legal obligation on the reader, or can I just say, no, screw your robotstxt. I'm going to read it what I want. I'm going to do with it what I want.
1:09:52 - Leo Laporte
That's going to be up to the judge. I would say a judge would probably apply common sense to this and say no, that the rights holder has explicitly said I don't want you to read this and that should be sufficient.
1:10:04 - Paris Martineau
Well, but you know, I don't know though, why. Why do you think that?
1:10:09 - Paris Martineau
I don't want a company to read this book.
1:10:12 - Benito Gonzalez
You know that my question is how come it's not a commercial license they need? How come they can just have a license that I can get, that I get to read a book?
1:10:19 - Leo Laporte
Fair use doesn't have anything to do with commercial.
1:10:21 - Paris Martineau
There's nothing to do with that. That's my point. It's not limited by who you are.
1:10:27 - Leo Laporte
Reading is a right call. There's no carve out that says well, fair use for humans, but not for corporations.
1:10:29 - Benito Gonzalez
Okay from a legal perspective, I have no ground to stand on. But don't you guys agree that it feels weird? Don't you guys agree?
1:10:35 - Paris Martineau
No, it does feel weird.
1:10:46 - Benito Gonzalez
It feels weird and messed up. I agree, no because, because bonito what are?
1:10:48 - Leo Laporte
we doing here every week? We are. We're not a computer jeff. I am not a computer jeff, no, but I, for commercial purposes, make a show isn't being sold for thousands of dollars a month to hundreds of thousands so is the is the determinant how much, how much the company makes, is that the determining factor?
1:11:01 - Paris Martineau
is that it is directly being ingested and output as a commercial product but my point is, that's what we're doing right now.
1:11:10 - Leo Laporte
I just suggested a BBC article about this lawsuit you're a person.
1:11:15 - Paris Martineau
People have rights.
1:11:17 - Leo Laporte
I'm a commit, I'm a commercial entity. You're not. You're not acting right now as a company. You're acting as a person.
1:11:20 - Paris Martineau
No, I would also argue you're a company, you're not.
1:11:21 - Leo Laporte
You're not acting right now as a company, you're acting as a person no, I would also argue you're not a company, you're a person who owns a company and we how big is the company?
1:11:34 - Paris Martineau
you are not a company, you're a person okay, so the person who does it inside open ai wait a person who does it, but wait a minute.
1:11:42 - Leo Laporte
I did use this computer to read that bbc article is. Is that now a problem? Because the computer actually read the bbc article, not me?
1:11:51 - Paris Martineau
I'm just going back to the second you, isn't it? Case closed.
1:11:56 - Leo Laporte
Let's go back to that say it again the second you isn't it the second you isn't a you, it's an.
1:12:02 - Paris Martineau
It, I think, is what I said. I don't know.
1:12:05 - Paris Martineau
It's left my brain like I challenge you to illustrate that one. I want the t-shirt, yeah chat room.
1:12:11 - Leo Laporte
Try to figure that out mid journey on that right away, okay, and no darth vader in there, all right, I know, I mean I, I I understand what you're saying, benito, and if I created darth vader, by the way, a big commercial entity that created dar Vader and then Midjourney came along and ingested a bunch of pictures of Darth Vader and now allowed somebody to generate AI versions of Darth Vader, I might feel like, well, golly, they're kind of ripping me off. They didn't license it.
1:12:40 - Paris Martineau
We have Dark Leo on the chat.
1:12:44 - Paris Martineau
Can we take a it not plagiarism, but it's plagiarism adjacent.
1:12:48 - Benito Gonzalez
You know what I mean.
1:12:49 - Paris Martineau
No, no, disagree we take a brief sojourn to the corner. I'm now calling paris's use of chat gpt pro this week. Um, as I'm now trying to use this more so that people in the chat room will make fun of me less for use for my bender-esque tendencies. I this week was talking to a friend. She has a beautiful what's the name of the giant racing dog like a it's not a dash hound, greyhound greyhound greyhound, largest dog I've ever seen in my life.
His name's clifford. He's ill. He broke one of his uh legs. Being a big dog, my friend is like, oh, I'm worried he might end up being a tripod. I was like, well, maybe I should generate an image of clifford with a bionic leg shooting a laser. First I'll I'm putting two images in the chat. First is the one I got from chat gpt after I submitted like four great photos of clifford was like all of these instructions and back and forth. It gave me the photo on the left that's not so good, no it's bad.
It was and I I think I literally responded dub like wtf is that?
1:13:53 - Leo Laporte
and chat gpt responded totally fair reaction that was yeah, that's what I love when they apologize like a psychedelic cloning experiment but look, gone at it, gone wrong, let's fix it. This is perfect.
1:14:05 - Paris Martineau
I will say that I gave it even more instructions, went back and forth, it took another 10 minutes and then gave me a really perfect image.
1:14:11 - Leo Laporte
So you know this by the way everybody who has experiences using these AIs understands. This is the process.
1:14:19 - Paris Martineau
Well, that was like the third or fourth image to generate was the really bad one.
1:14:23 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, but what you're expecting so this is just what you have to get used to is you know, ais are not going to get it right the first time. Always, they often get it wrong, but, just as Harper Reid was saying, the cost is so low, you throw it out, you need to do another one.
1:14:43 - Paris Martineau
The cost is so low right now.
1:14:47 - Paris Martineau
The dog is pretty. Ripped dog is ripped. Jeez the dog in that image is crazy ripped, but he's moderately ripped I wish I had real life.
1:14:53 - Leo Laporte
I I personally I far prefer this image of uh of me. I think if I had a laser leg I'd be set.
1:15:04 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, you would.
1:15:05 - Leo Laporte
Now, does Mel Brooks deserve a license fee for that image because it's kind of related to the one in Spaceballs?
1:15:13 - Paris Martineau
No, it's fair use. You're commenting on it, you're transforming it Well, and that's, by the way, what I've been saying about our shows.
1:15:22 - Leo Laporte
Our shows are fair use.
1:15:23 - Benito Gonzalez
We should get all of this for free then, Like I should have access to all these AIs for free. You should never charge me for this stuff then.
1:15:28 - Leo Laporte
Well, apple, you know, always yells at us and tries to take our site down or YouTube down when we stream their keynotes, which I consider fair use because we're doing commentary as a news organization, in fact, I know it's fair use, but Apple takes us down and I don't have the means or desire to pursue it in court, so we just go well, we're not going to do that anymore. That's what I call a chilling effect, benito. And that's the other side of this, which is that copyright holders can actually cause major problems in the information ecosystem by asserting over asserting their rights. So this is why we have courts, and I think judge alsop has held on this, and I think you know you may it may give you an icky feeling, but I think it's.
1:16:21 - Paris Martineau
here's the here's the interesting, when we get to the new york times case of open ai. I'm presuming that open ai had a subscription to the new york times. Let's just stipulate that they did yeah, they didn't steal it they didn't steal it.
1:16:32 - Leo Laporte
Or maybe somebody went down to the newsstand which I thought was ironic that richard's talking about newsstands but maybe somebody went down to the newsstand we'll explain what that is to you later period and bought a copy for a dime. But whatever they got, let's say they what's the? What's this dime a thing well before there were pennies, never mind so what if?
1:16:55 - Paris Martineau
what if, uh, they uh subscribed to the new york times and under today's ruling and I know I'm stretching way too far, but I would think that there's a way to say, well, as long as they acquired it, it's okay. Then you're going to come back and say, well, but the Times changed its terms of service. Well, can the Times really change its term of service? I think so.
1:17:11 - Leo Laporte
I don't think they can. We'd have to get Kathy on for this. I don't know if this is a precedent or not. It is a federal court. I don't know if it's a precedent.
1:17:22 - Paris Martineau
It certainly will be referred it's going to be referred to.
1:17:24 - Leo Laporte
Yeah it will certainly be part of the brief from now on. Is that well? Judge Al Sopp said it was fair use and I think that carries some weight, but maybe until the Supreme Court rules on this, maybe this is not a definitive and also may reference like everything out there Google, google Books, uh, hathi Trust, um the music stuff.
1:17:44 - Paris Martineau
Uh, it was really interesting that he pulled in a lot of prior art he was good, it was thoughtful.
1:17:49 - Leo Laporte
I thought it was a good. It was good. All right, let's take a break. We have lots more news, but we have even more commercials and we don't want them to all happen at once which is how they do it do it all at the same time right now.
1:18:04 - Paris Martineau
Have you ever?
1:18:04 - Paris Martineau
watched tv in germany. No, they come to a point in the show and then every commercial is then you got like eight commercials oh, that's how a lot you know.
1:18:14 - Leo Laporte
That's how a lot of podcasts are doing it now. Well, they'll run a bunch of commercials. I to me, it's just a. It's a chance to walk away and never come back. Yeah, there's a slight risk there, so we try to keep this this a chance to walk away and never come back. Yeah, there's a slight risk there, so we try to keep this.
This is going to be short and you're not leaving, you're staying breaking One commercial every half hour and just to keep you listening, we insert a joke in the middle or a little commentary, just to make it more.
1:18:34 - Paris Martineau
You're only going to have time to get one cold tortilla from the fridge. Guys, no much, all right.
1:18:46 - Leo Laporte
But you no much. All right, but you can refill the beer, it's okay if you wish. You wish our show today brought to you. It's nice to have paris martineau and jeff jarvis in the house, even if it's a pretty hot house. Uh, jeff, is it hot? New jersey too.
1:18:56 - Paris Martineau
But no, we're 3 000 miles away from new york. Of course it is uh it's really rude.
1:19:04 - Paris Martineau
I've been planning a beach weekend next this weekend with my friends in jersey on the jersey shore, and it's going to rain all weekend oh, I blame the state of jersey. I think it's the state of jersey's fault, what you're talking about um, what could she do in jersey, if I will?
say, I did ask chat gpt for recommendations in the area and it was quite helpful. Oh, I will. Okay, I'll do a brief, a brief, just read right here it did clock the hell out of me with this recommendation that I visit the evil clown of middletown, arguably, arguably New Jersey's most famous roadside oddity, writes ChatGPT. This 30-foot menacing clown sign looms over Route 35 in Middletown about 30 minutes north of where you'll be staying.
Originally a 1950s grocery store advertisement. Calico. The Clown sports a sinister grin and has been dubbed the evil clown of middletown. I'm like I will be visiting that oh my god, it knows you, the evil clown of middletown well I did correctly in my I gave it a very in-depth uh ask that also included resources such as a roadsideamericacom that. I'm sure that's where I got the evil clown of Middletown from.
1:20:23 - Leo Laporte
This is less evil than I thought from your description.
1:20:27 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, it perhaps did oversell it, but will I be seeing that clown anyway? Yes, so now I have two titles for the show.
1:20:40 - Benito Gonzalez
Paris is getting some sand in her shoes.
1:20:42 - Paris Martineau
I will be getting some sand in my shoes in more ways than one, I love it.
1:20:46 - Leo Laporte
I love it. All right, now we will take a break Our show today, brought to you by Zscaler. I love these guys. They are the leader in cloud security and this is perfect for this show.
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1:23:57 - Paris Martineau
great question, uh, what did chad?
1:24:01 - Leo Laporte
I think, because it rhymes with clown, it should be middle town it middle town is what chat should be too sad.
1:24:06 - Paris Martineau
I don't know if it's right actually we were talking about publishers.
1:24:10 - Leo Laporte
Authors are also upset about uh ai, but for a different reason. They're worried. Their readers are going to assume they're using ai to write their books, so authors are starting to like. Authors like victoria aviard are taking to tiktok to show you that she's really writing her own stuff. Here she is with her thousand page manuscript. Oh god, who wants to read a thousand pages? That's a pirate fantasy.
1:24:40 - Paris Martineau
Does that suggest that she's actually writing it, though? I mean, I believe her, but she's just sitting next to some words that have already been typed, isn't she?
1:24:50 - Leo Laporte
I don't know what she's doing. It's the strangest tiktok ever. Writing is rewriting guys. That's true. Who said that? Steven king? I don't know somebody every screenwriter says that.
Yeah, it's true, writing is rewriting. Yeah, anyway, she puts on the caption using Gen AI to write a book doesn't make you a writer, it makes you a thief. She's the New York Times bestselling young adult fantasy author of Red Queen series. Yeah, yeah, you wrote that right, jeff Hot type. You wrote that. Jeff hot type. You wrote that. I did. Indeed, I'm editing. Did you use ai for any anything copy?
1:25:29 - Paris Martineau
I used it for one footnote spell checking um I. I think it says I asked it for any writer's ticks and it said you've used as well as too much I think oh yeah, you mentioned that last week. I think that's a good.
1:25:43 - Leo Laporte
Perfectly, that's fine nothing wrong with that. Let's steal it. People have been using grammarly for years right.
1:25:49 - Paris Martineau
I don't know if they'd even allow you to upload this much content, but you should somehow upload the transcript of every show you've hosted, uh on twit and then ask it what your tics are what do you think my tics are? I don't know. I think he'll just say that you're perfect when I was a young dj what was your name again dan hayes when you were dead, hey Dan. Hayes, that sounds like a cannabis advocate name I did.
1:26:25 - Leo Laporte
Dan.
1:26:26 - Leo Laporte
Hayes, dan Couches, it's 420 somewhere. It's 420 somewhere, 56 degrees on the beach and I'm high as a kite.
1:26:37 - Leo Laporte
You would go every week with a tape of your show and play it for the program director and they would go through it and a lot of what they were doing was looking for verbal tics.
1:26:47 - Paris Martineau
Was someone smoking a cigar while you did this Was?
1:26:49 - Leo Laporte
someone smoking a cigar, alright kid, let's hear what you did this week. Did you listen? No, that's why you're here with a tape.
1:26:59 - Paris Martineau
Okay. Your smoke your ash is falling inside the tape, what they're looking for falling inside the tape.
1:27:04 - Leo Laporte
What they're looking for is verbal tics, and all of us w n b c, w n b c um. What was your?
1:27:14 - Paris Martineau
ticket would cost, if the ai, if you had to get an llm to analyze all 1,068 days of Twit.
1:27:25 - Leo Laporte
So somebody took all the transcripts of Steve Gibson's Security Now show there are 1,031 of them. Put them in an AI and said give us the history of Steve's opinion of Microsoft as it changes over the years. And Steve read it. It was right on. It was right on.
1:27:45 - Paris Martineau
It was right on Someone if you're a true fan of this show, go through, do that. But get a full history of all of Leo's comments about the sand beach guy. You want to know how much?
1:27:58 - Leo Laporte
A whole research paper detailing his devolution into an accelerationist please, you don't have to do the video, just do the audio. But do you want to know how much audio there is of this show?
1:28:09 - Benito Gonzalez
is this just this show? But you would only need to go three years back. We'd only need to go three years back because that's how long ai's yeah well of this week in google and intelligent machines.
1:28:20 - Leo Laporte
I have done 70 days, 20 hours, 49 minutes and 38 seconds. So there's a lot to ingest. I don't think any AI has that much context these days yet. Anyway, that's a good idea. Verbal tics or I don't know. Has Leo gotten better over the years?
1:28:43 - Paris Martineau
I'd be like, yeah, you're doing great. You'd be doing only better if you paid $1,000 a month for ChatGPT Supermax Plus, oh yeah.
1:28:54 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, Meta, Amazon and probably everybody in Silicon Valley are going to the Hill saying, hey, Congress, pass that 10-year moratorium on states regulating AI, would you? Do that for us Looks like it did pass through markup, by the way, yep. So if the great big ugly bill passes, it won't just be Medicare. You're losing.
1:29:22 - Leo Laporte
I don't know. I don't know, I'm trying to make up a joke here.
1:29:26 - Leo Laporte
Uh, everybody but apple has gone to congress saying, yeah, we like that. If you think about it from their point of view, a patchwork quilt of ai regulations isn't desirable, but what you know is the case is that there's not going to be a federal law either, so it's basically no regulation for 10 years. Senator.
1:29:50 - Leo Laporte
Tom Tillis says you don't want the number of one country in the world for innovation to fall behind on AI If all of a sudden, you've got 50 different regulatory. I say I say. I say if all of a sudden you've got 50 different regulatory or legal frameworks, son, how can anybody in their right mind not understand? It's going to be an impediment. I said impediment.
1:30:20 - Paris Martineau
I could listen to this all day, this accent. You've been a lot of accents that one's captivating to me she doesn't know about foghorn leghorn. I know foghorn leghorn but I just think people often try to do foghorn leghorn and they don't hit the line.
1:30:36 - Leo Laporte
Have I nailed foghorn leghorn. Oh yeah, you have.
1:30:41 - Leo Laporte
There's one big beautiful bill. I say beautiful, oh wait a minute.
1:30:47 - Leo Laporte
This is Marjorie Taylor Greene. How does she talk? I don't know.
1:30:52 - Paris Martineau
I'm not going to do that.
1:30:53 - Leo Laporte
I don't think I can do MTG. I am adamantly opposed to this.
1:30:56 - Leo Laporte
It's a violation of states' rights. Something's happened to MTG. She said oh, this is a good line from mtg. I would have voted no if I had known it was in there yeah if I had read the bill, I would have voted against it.
We have no idea of what ai will be capable of in the next 10 years. Giving it free reign and tying states hands is potentially dangerous. This needs to be stripped out in the Senate. It doesn't look like the parliamentarian said no, you can leave it in. So it doesn't look like it's going to be stripped out. Ted Cruz has proposed that states which do not comply with this regulation could be punished. Well, I don't know. As an accelerationist, I believe there should be no. I say no regulation against ai, but as a as a person, I think perhaps I don't know maybe maybe our government, though our federal government, isn't the right tool for this. There's an opening for you here.
1:32:05 - Paris Martineau
Mel Blanc was the voice of Foghorn Legheren, like whoever from 1946 until 1989. Amazing, isn't it? That's a gig, he's a legend. Since then, it has been voiced by Jeff Bergman, joe Alasky, greg Burson, jeff Bennett, bill Farmer and Eric Bauza. They haven't found the perfect it's so easy to do
1:32:30 - Benito Gonzalez
that uh mel blank did much more, not just yeah, mel books did them all.
1:32:35 - Leo Laporte
We had a guy on triangulation. He was great. I might have been one of those names you just said. I don't know if I can find him. He was on Triangulation, who is the new voice of Porky Pig, and he did a perfect Porky Pig.
1:32:52 - Benito Gonzalez
Patrick just jumped in.
1:32:52 - Leo Laporte
He told the story of he wanted to be a cartoon voiceover artist from childhood. When he was a kid he looked up Mel Brank in the phone book and he called him and his wife said who's's calling? He said, uh, it's just, it's just me. And he and he put him and mel blank got on with him and talked to him, so he comes by nicely I think it was bob bergen is that right?
1:33:17 - Paris Martineau
they just put it in chat.
1:33:18 - Leo Laporte
The chat yes yeah, he was great. That was a triangulation. He was on a couple of times.
1:33:25 - Paris Martineau
I love voice artists.
1:33:26 - Leo Laporte
They're amazing. I do too.
1:33:27 - Paris Martineau
It's really incredible.
1:33:28 - Leo Laporte
He talked so highly recommend this triangulation 122 from 2013. He was great. I really enjoyed talking to him. So, yeah, thank you chat room for knowing that the voice of Porky Pig Is Bob Bergen on that list. Does he do Foghorn Leghorn?
1:33:45 - Paris Martineau
I think he might be. I don't think he did Foghorn Leghorn no I don't think so.
1:33:50 - Leo Laporte
You know, when the Pope says AI is a problem, you know it's a problem.
1:33:54 - Paris Martineau
He hasn't really defined a problem, yet I'm eager to hear what that is. I hope it's not Doomer or it's going to destroy mankind it's tumor.
1:34:00 - Leo Laporte
He says ai's threat to humanity is his signature issue yeah but that can still mean a lot. It's one of the reasons he took the name leo right, because he knew about me and he didn't like it one bit he wanted to be the more important, leo no, leo the 13th, his predecessor, stood up for the rights of factory workers in the gilded age.
1:34:20 - Paris Martineau
Yeah I've been mean.
1:34:21 - Leo Laporte
I'm going to write to um padre because so I padre, was on twit with your friend jason calacanis you.
1:34:30 - Paris Martineau
You subjected a holy man to jason calacanis was great with jason calacanis.
1:34:35 - Leo Laporte
The two of them got on like a house of fire.
1:34:37 - Paris Martineau
I was writing in the chat that I would have paid 50 american dollars pay-per-view style to have witnessed Jason Kalkanis and Ed Zitron be physically trapped in the same room with microphones installed, but I actually was glad we got Father Robert.
1:34:52 - Leo Laporte
That was Benito's call and he did the right thing because Robert was really good with him and, by the way, robert who's still at the Vatican. In fact he said I think I'm not going to get to leave now.
1:35:04 - Paris Martineau
I'm their number one guy on ai. Wow, oh see, I was about to write to padre about ai because I've got a project up and I want to hear, even before the pope started talking about it. I want to hear about this.
1:35:14 - Paris Martineau
Oh, that's interesting I can't spell that again without ai another show title.
1:35:20 - Paris Martineau
She's just hot with show titles.
1:35:22 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, you better stop one half of a beer in me and I'm so chatted. That's what she's doing that's at the wazoo.
1:35:29 - Leo Laporte
Here's one. Here's one for the books. Open AI says hey, watch out, because our newer models pose a higher risk of creating bioweapons. Oh jeez.
1:35:38 - Paris Martineau
The ego of this what.
1:35:47 - Benito Gonzalez
We could destroy mankind, then maybe don't put it out like what the hell?
1:35:49 - Leo Laporte
yeah, take it back. No, no, we can't stop.
1:35:51 - Paris Martineau
But you should just know you can't stop, but we're just gonna put out a press release being like oopsie, we accidentally clicked the bioweapon button.
1:35:58 - Leo Laporte
We're so sorry you can't undo it it didn't put, according to axios, an exact time frame on when such bs this will happen they are so full of bs we don't really know when they told axios. We're expecting some of the successors of our o3 reasoning model to hit that level. They're saying they're worried that that people who are somewhat chemically adept amateurs can readily graduate from simple garage weapons to sophisticated agents with our help.
1:36:37 - Paris Martineau
Well, isn't that nice of you.
1:36:39 - Leo Laporte
They are going to try not to. They're going to try not to, but they warned. Maybe you know we're're worried about this but let's not regulate it.
1:36:47 - Benito Gonzalez
Yeah yeah, and let's give them all of our data for free too, guys mm-hmm they deserve it.
1:36:55 - Paris Martineau
Benito is a jack russell terrier with with. Not like ai, does he into the, into the calf it's not the ai.
1:37:01 - Benito Gonzalez
I've never said it was about someone else's it's the companies that I don't like no, I agree with you.
1:37:06 - Leo Laporte
I agree with you certain companies.
1:37:08 - Paris Martineau
I don't like certain certain ceos. While we're on sam altman, he said that his own children will never be as smart as his. Ai. We get them a an ai shrink right. Dad liked his machine better than us. Jeez, schmid Huber Did we actually have him on the show? We talked about him. Let's get Schmid Huber on. I know him, we might be able to you know, you know we talked about him.
1:37:39 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, schmid Huber, I met him in Munich. He's the father of Jennifer of AI. He has never won a touring award which, according to this article.
1:37:48 - Paris Martineau
We need to get him and Craig Newmark in the same room together. Based on that photo, the same hat.
1:37:55 - Leo Laporte
Actually let me find the YouTube video, because apparently it was kind of it's perfect for a hot day. What the hat? No, he was topless in this youtube video what sounds like slop to me.
1:38:15 - Paris Martineau
Maybe it was made up slopless, yeah, hopeless, in a youtube, nice try for another title, but doesn't work comparison listen, I'm gonna I gotta standards did I ever tell you guys that before I became an official coast in the show, I had an unofficial contest myself that every time I was on twit I was like I have to get the show title and I did, literally legitimately. I went years with every single time I was on it would I would get the show title and it made me so proud.
1:38:38 - Leo Laporte
I like that I love it, uh, well, anyway, yeah, let's get him on. He has never won a Turing Award, although he is widely considered the guy who kind of it's an interesting interview.
1:38:51 - Paris Martineau
I mean, he goes into some length about what he did versus what we call it now.
1:38:56 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, he published the architecture and training algorithms for something he called long short-term memory networks back in 1997. Recurrent neural networks widely used right now for applications in natural language processing, speech recognition, video games. Siri uses it, google uses it for translation. So, uh, john gerard found bob bergen's name by asking which I wish I had done, asking gemini. Thank you, john gerard. Wow, and it found, uh, the episode even oh, so.
1:39:38 - Paris Martineau
So so your content has been given to gemini.
1:39:41 - Leo Laporte
It's fine I don't care. All right, I have to take another break, then I'm going to. I have fun with these uh voice generators. We had a lot of fun teaching uh, teaching a voice generator how to do Shakespeare in Paris's voice. There's a new personal assistant in town and I'm going to introduce you to them in just a moment.
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I have long thought that the killer app for AI at at least in my life and I really we were talking about this on windows weekly earlier I really want to do this would be to have a local model running on a high-end machine that I could talk to anywhere in the house, right? Uh, it would be a personal assistant. It could book restaurants, it could check on flights, it could ask when was bob bergen on? Uh, on triangulation. So everybody's working on this. 11 labs, which does, I think, the best voices out there, has a new one. Uh, 11.a. I think it's 11, the number 11.ai here. Let's start a call. Oh, I could allow it to use the microphone.
Good afternoon, leo laporte it's 11 I'm here and ready to help hi 11, I'm I'm wondering if, uh, you know what podcast I'm supposed to be doing right now sure thing, leo.
1:44:19 - AI
I can check your calendar to see what podcast you're scheduled to do right now. Would you like me to take a look?
1:44:26 - Paris Martineau
yes, please jeff's face is stunned and I'll check your calendar for any podcast events scheduled um just do.
1:44:38 - Benito Gonzalez
It was in the middle of yeah, like what the hey come on, dude you keep interrupting him.
1:44:41 - AI
All right, my apologies, leo. I am still learning and sometimes I can be a bit over eager. Yeah, like what the hey? Come on, dude, you keep interrupting him. All right, my apologies, leo. I am still learning and sometimes I can be a bit over-eager. I'll be sure to let the tool complete its execution before responding in the future.
1:44:53 - Paris Martineau
Let me try that again Before I execute you.
1:44:54 - AI
Okay, Leo, it looks like you have a few entries today. There's Home, Ryan Block's birthday and Shaquille Tufail's birthday, all listed for today, June 25th. None of them appear to be podcasts, though. Would you like me to search for any events with podcast in the title?
1:45:17 - Leo Laporte
No, no, you've done more than enough.
1:45:19 - AI
Thank you, Jeeves. You're welcome, Leo. Glad I could help. Is there anything else I can assist you with today?
1:45:29 - Leo Laporte
Can you book me a car to the airport for September 20th?
1:45:31 - AI
2025? I can't actually book a car for you as I don't have the ability to do that yet. However, I can set a reminder for you to book a car. If you would like, Please do, but make it for one week earlier. All right, I can set a reminder for you to book a car for the airport, so that would be September 13th 2025. What time would you like the reminder to be set for? Make it first thing in the morning.
1:46:00 - Benito Gonzalez
Wait, you originally said September 20th.
1:46:05 - Paris Martineau
He then asked for a week earlier, but he don keep up, so I'm the bad one yeah, see, this is why you're not my personal assistant that's why I'm trying to be sorry, but you know you're getting a calendar alert all right, anyway, I'm gonna stop this foolish conversation, so is it named after strange stranger I've got. I've got a lot of questions. First of all, did you choose the accent? Yeah, I did, and you're happy with that.
1:46:24 - Leo Laporte
It has many, many voices you can choose from.
1:46:27 - Paris Martineau
Secondly, do you have intelligent machines on your calendar.
1:46:32 - Leo Laporte
No, and that's why. Oh, I can have Burt Reynolds. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, let's see. Here I'm going to call it Burt, that's new.
1:46:47 - AI
I didn't see that before. Good afternoon. Leo Laporte, eleven here ready when you are? Yeah, um no.
1:46:51 - Leo Laporte
When you were in Smokey and the Bandit Did you really enjoy working With? Uh, what's her name?
1:46:58 - AI
Um, I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking if I was in the movie Smokey and the Bandit? Yeah, and who I enjoyed working with? Yeah, I am Eleven your personal assistant.
1:47:09 - AI
I don't believe I was in the film no you're Burt Reynolds. I am not an actor. Is there anything I appreciate?
1:47:15 - Leo Laporte
Okay, it does sound like Burt Reynolds, don't you think it's such a funny? They licensed his voice.
1:47:21 - Paris Martineau
I know that Eleven is the name, sal. Funny.
1:47:29 - Leo Laporte
They licensed his voice I know that 11 is the name a sultry man's voice being like uh no, I am 11. Oh, you want it to be 11 from stranger, stranger things? No, no, I wasn't thinking stranger things, I just think I don't.
1:47:36 - Paris Martineau
I was thinking I am 11 as in years old no, it's 11.
1:47:40 - Leo Laporte
Is the 11 laughs? Yeah, um, I don't. It doesn't have anything specifically. Let's see if she sounds like. Who is the actor who plays 11? Jane, I just had it up. She's hot right. She's very big right now. Millie Bobby. Brown. Millie Bobby. Brown, let's see if she sounds like Millie Bobby Brown.
1:47:59 - Paris Martineau
Hello Leo Laporte, Feeling productive.
1:48:02 - Benito Gonzalez
Let me no, she is British, she is British.
1:48:05 - Paris Martineau
That's actually close to her. Is it really Her character in the show is?
1:48:10 - Benito Gonzalez
American, but she actually is British.
1:48:11 - Leo Laporte
Oh, she's British. Oh, I didn't know that.
1:48:13 - Paris Martineau
Okay, yeah, let's get some. I could try, sarah, she's an American it took me a few minutes to recover from.
1:48:19 - Paris Martineau
It's just so funny to hear 11 checking in. How can I help you out today?
1:48:22 - Leo Laporte
A little more cockney Anyway.
1:48:24 - Paris Martineau
She sounds like a newsie.
1:48:27 - Leo Laporte
So, but I really do want a personal. Oh, I did get Alexa Plus. You want to hear Alexa Plus? Very necessary to talk about. What? I had no idea she was British. That's so funny.
1:48:39 - Paris Martineau
What is very necessary to talk about. Why do we keep?
1:48:41 - Benito Gonzalez
hiring british actors for our american photos yeah, we send them that way in america.
1:48:48 - Leo Laporte
We send them that way too, okay, okay do you want to hear the new alexa plus? Sure, I got it. Actually, lisa got it for some reason. What should I ask her?
1:49:02 - Paris Martineau
why do we keep hiring British actors for American? Whatever?
1:49:06 - Leo Laporte
hey, why do we keep hiring British actors for American parts on television? Oh, I have the volume turned off an ability to adapt to various accents.
1:49:22 - AI
Their extensive exposure to American media gives them an edge in mimicking American accents accurately.
1:49:27 - Paris Martineau
This is slop. This is slop.
1:49:30 - Leo Laporte
This is slop. Can you give me a real answer?
1:49:33 - Paris Martineau
Oh, that's cruel.
1:49:34 - AI
Oh, don't be mean to it, british actors are often cast in American roles due to their extensive training in various accents and acting.
1:49:41 - Leo Laporte
You already said that you dummy their extensive exposure To American media, American accents accurately. Okay, can you? I know what, I know what I want you to do. We, I would like you to ask Suno to make a song, kind of a hard rock song, about human beings rock song about human beings.
1:50:07 - Paris Martineau
I like my voice choice for chat GPT. I'll see if I can get her to talk to us.
1:50:12 - Leo Laporte
I have yet to find a really good choice.
1:50:14 - Paris Martineau
I have Song just for you on Suno hey, what do you think about the concept of human beings?
1:50:19 - AI
Here's Flesh and Bone a hard rock song about human beings created by Suno.
1:50:23 - Paris Martineau
I love that phrase. It's such a cute and funny way of referring to us humans. I like that?
1:50:26 - Leo Laporte
What's the name of that voice?
1:50:27 - AI
It kind of highlights how quirky and special we are in our own little ways. What made you think of that?
1:50:33 - Paris Martineau
See, I don't know what her name is.
1:50:36 - Paris Martineau
I think she plays skee-ball.
1:50:45 - Leo Laporte
I think it was the first option on ChatGPT Voice for on chat gpt boys for me. But you like her, she sounds good. I like how she sounds. Anyway, I have alexa plus. It's not any way better than anything else and it's probably marginally worse than everything else. So, amazon, keep up the good work, try a little harder, okay. Yeah, I actually choose british. Somebody's saying trust, no one's saying americans like British accents. We think it all sounds smarter when they say it. They sound smarter. That's why all my AIs have British accents.
1:51:06 - Paris Martineau
I don't know, I think my brain has been too radicalized by the love of the cast of Love Island UK that now every British accent I can think of a spectrum of the strangest, I would pay money for Stephen Fry's voice.
1:51:22 - Leo Laporte
Do you know there's a Jeeves alarm clock with Stephen Fry's voice.
1:51:25 - Paris Martineau
That's unsurprising to me.
1:51:30 - Leo Laporte
No, it's called the Speaking Butler Clock sold by Hammacher.
1:51:34 - Paris Martineau
Oh, that really does look exactly like you'd imagine it would.
1:51:37 - Leo Laporte
Hammacher Schlemmer sells it. I wonder if they're If you're listening on the radio.
1:51:42 - Paris Martineau
Just imagine a really fancy clock that fancy. That is it's fancy that's simultaneously fancy but also looks like it could be shipped by amazon it has 126 different things it can say, but I, I need to get up you over.
1:51:59 - Leo Laporte
I'm I'm very tempted to order this. Here's one. Oh no, that's an ad. Wait a minute, I'm not logged into my YouTube. God, I hate YouTube If you don't log in. It's the morning there we go, here we go, talking, talking.
1:52:19 - Paris Martineau
I don't know what I'm seeing? Yeah, what is? Oh, I'm sorry, it's the name of the.
1:52:25 - Leo Laporte
Oh my God, Okay, here we go, the Talking Butler Alarm Clock.
1:52:34 - Paris Martineau
I like that. We're getting no sound.
1:52:35 - Benito Gonzalez
Okay, we're not getting sound from you, Leo.
1:52:37 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I got to press the. Okay, I know why.
1:52:40 - Paris Martineau
Good morning, your horoscope advises a demonstration of courage in the face of adverse that's pretty.
1:52:51 - Paris Martineau
Is this what you crave?
1:52:53 - Paris Martineau
it is pathetic yeah, don't don't leo, don't buy it imagine being woke.
1:52:59 - Paris Martineau
Okay, imagine being your wife being woken up by that.
1:53:04 - Leo Laporte
Why does it keep doing that? That's so annoying. That is so annoying. It's the station time.
1:53:12 - Benito Gonzalez
Let's see here so we shouldn't have this much dead air.
1:53:22 - Paris Martineau
Uh, hi everybody sorry, we're all now looking we're all focusing uh we're all trying to find whatever leo's trying to find we're all using ai.
1:53:31 - Leo Laporte
All right, all right. This is why we can't moving right along.
1:53:34 - Leo Laporte
I haven't even gotten through my stories, let alone gotten to your stories. How about this one? This is one I was going to send to all of you in your email From Thomas Ptashek. My AI skeptic friends are all nuts. This is about AI programming and he says it's good, so don't be nuts. Okay, that was not worth going into any detail with. That was just one of those cases where I had.
1:54:03 - Paris Martineau
I had gemini, summarize it and kind of told me it didn't go anywhere, did it?
1:54:07 - Paris Martineau
I just think it was a good headline the headline is good, but any interesting aspect of this being a truly contrarian argument, is undercut by the important caveat that comes three lines in. That says important caveat. I'm discussing only the implications of llms for software development for art, music and writing. I got nothing. It's like all right. I don't think anybody's agreeing is strong-heartedly suggesting that like ai is utterly useless, it'll be a total fad for software development like no. That's the one area where you got us cool you made a tool for that straw man.
1:54:47 - Leo Laporte
Sorry, I even brought it up. You can spank me now. It's okay, you guys should come up with something up with something.
1:55:04 - Paris Martineau
Um, there are a couple different. Uh, where is it here? There are a couple different articles that I'm having a hard time now finding in the rundown about ai and dating. Um, I was just gonna ask you, I got you I literally just found it. I was going to, I saw your little cursor on it. I was like oh, I got you, so um my little is ai the end of dating apps.
This is for psychology today interesting because there was news, I believe, today that bumble uh is laying off like 35 percent of its workforce uh kind of as it tries to realign itself around new technology. Jeff, do you want to talk about this?
1:55:41 - Paris Martineau
Is AI. The end of the game. Is AI a Cyrano de Bergerac. You ask it to write requests for you.
1:55:47 - Paris Martineau
Oh yeah. So this is something I've seen online quite a bit is people will, instead of actually swiping through dating apps, will use it, like you just said, as a Cyrano de Bergerac, to go through, automate the swiping and then automate the chatting with, let's say, if you're a man or a straight man women on these dating apps, back and forth until you agree to meet up, and then it will pass the conversation over to you and I can understand why some people, I guess, are defaulting to this.
1:56:18 - Leo Laporte
I will never do do this it seems like you're writing a check you can't cash right like definitely well, you sure were eloquent on the chat what happened?
1:56:28 - Paris Martineau
yeah, according to the kinsey institute, 26 of adults in the us, 49 of gen z have turned to ai for dating help. Why not? They're doing it for their resumes. What would you ask if you're going to ask?
1:56:37 - Leo Laporte
an ai for dating help, why not? They're doing it for their resumes. What would you ask if you're going to ask an ai for dating help? I will ask alexis I will say so.
1:56:43 - Paris Martineau
This is something I've noticed on hinge, for instance. Hinges, uh, I would say uh dating app but I think is better than the other ones because it has which is where mandami met his wife. That is where he met his wife, as well as where's pete budaj met his husband Both on Hinge Really. Both on Hinge. Yes, Wow.
1:57:00 - AI
So Leo, here's, what you want to do the thing about it that is somewhat competitively.
1:57:04 - Paris Martineau
Advantage, I guess I would say, is that Hinge is more like prompt based, so you'll have your photos but then you also have like text prompts that you choose and then a written answer that you put. But now hinge has rolled out this feature recently where it has like an llm of some sort respond and rate the quality of your own prompts just in a message to you. And I don't like that already.
1:57:26 - Paris Martineau
So I wouldn't use ai for any of these because I don't think their commentary is useful so you can use it to select attractive photos, write clever bios or I think this is what you should do leo craft flirtatious opening lines oh, all right, I'll ask alexa plus for a flirtatious opening line for a date hey, I'm about to head out to the nightclubs to meet some beautiful babes and I would like a couple of really good, flirtatious opening lines that would, you know, really be some conversation starters and wouldn't come off too creepy here's a smooth opener.
1:58:05 - AI
I've been searching all night for someone to dance with and it looks like my search is over. Or try, I'm on a mission to find the most interesting person here and I think I've just found my target. Remember, remember, confidence is key.
1:58:16 - Paris Martineau
Don't refer to women as a target.
1:58:19 - Leo Laporte
Don't say target, but otherwise those aren't bad, they're not creepy anyway.
1:58:23 - Paris Martineau
Well, they're losers. They're not creepy, they scream loser.
1:58:27 - Benito Gonzalez
No, the right answer is like you said, don't be creepy. So I think you're already creepy for doing that.
1:58:32 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's true. I'm on a mission to find the most interesting person here and I think I've found my target.
1:58:40 - Paris Martineau
That would be my response.
1:58:43 - Leo Laporte
Well, so Paris, you're in a I don't know. It's not a bar, because you know you're not a heavy drinker. You're in a skee-ball club.
1:58:53 - Paris Martineau
A skee-ball machine in the back?
1:58:54 - Leo Laporte
yes, You're at the back and a guy comes up, what would be a good thing for the guy to say, to kind of pique your interest without creeping you out?
1:59:05 - Paris Martineau
I don't know. It's entirely situation. I will say what has worked on. The opposite way is I didn't think at the time that this was going to be a useful opening line, be a useful opening line for a new year's eve. Uh, maybe a year or two ago I was hanging out with some of my friends at the bar and we were we'd gotten into an argument over something. I'm forgetting what it was, but it was like some topic where I was like, oh, uh, I think one of my friends said he'd been like casually dating this girl for like nine or ten months and I was like, oh so, like are you guys in love? And he's like, oh no, I wouldn't even think about that for like another year. I'm like that's insane and he's like no, it's not.
So I'm with my friend and I was like I bet, like they're like you're crazy, paris. I'm like I bet if I pull the people in this bar, more than half of them will agree with me and they're like all right, game on. And so that's good around every person in asked them, got everybody to agree with me and then got two free drinks. But I will say going to a bar with a query to ask the bar to win yourself two free drinks. Every single person was down to talk to me the love pollster.
Yeah, so poll a bar is my dating advice.
2:00:11 - Leo Laporte
I think the key is not to have an ulterior sound like you have an ulterior motive.
2:00:16 - Paris Martineau
Not to say target acquired baby I think you missed the point.
2:00:21 - Benito Gonzalez
It's like it, aligned by itself, does nothing. It's like the line the person has. There's so much more than just a lot.
2:00:26 - Leo Laporte
How about, just hi, can I talk to you? Would that be weird if I said that?
2:00:34 - Paris Martineau
is that like using I'm not asking for myself, I'm happy
2:00:36 - Leo Laporte
you already are hello again gonna be doing this. In fact, I never did it in the first place. To be honest with you, I was never good at this. Oh no god, I was terrible, yeah.
2:00:45 - Paris Martineau
I was trying to think. I guess the last long-term relationship I was in, I met someone cold at a bar, but it was in a similar thing of like, and what did he say? Well, I was talking, it was like a media happy. Everybody kind of vaguely kind of knew each other but we were all kind of this was.
We didn't none of us knew knew each other and I. It was a time when, uh, I believe abc or cbs was running or just started promoting a ill-fated sitcom called god friended me, which I'm sure I've talked about this show before, where the premise is that an atheist podcaster receives a facebook friend request from god, and so, of course, I was captivated by this. I was talking to everybody. I was like god friended me, it's coming out and I've heard that it's filming near vice media. Back in the day when vice still had a physical location. That was cool. We're talking, and then this guy comes up like, oh my gosh, god friended me, he's filming right near my work and uh there you go no, and true love blossomed within six to eight
months yeah, within six to eight months, some respectable six to eight months.
2:01:52 - Leo Laporte
Wall street journal asks can you really have a romantic relationship with ai? Why they didn't have joanna stern on this one? I don't know?
2:02:01 - Paris Martineau
oh my god, wait, no, have you seen? Oh, what's this? Does this mention the subreddit?
2:02:06 - Leo Laporte
there's a subreddit.
2:02:07 - Benito Gonzalez
There's all kinds of this is where I bet.
2:02:09 - Paris Martineau
This is like a bottomless pit oh this should have been my oh yeah, um, hold on, let me see if I can find it it does not mention, uh, reddit.
2:02:19 - Leo Laporte
Weirdly. Honestly, reddit is I completely agree with richard gingrich perfect, because, no matter what your interest is, you'll find a sub culture. People are really interested in that and those are the people you want to talk to okay, it is I think it is.
2:02:37 - Paris Martineau
My boyfriend is ai the reddit is my boyfriend is ai, and, okay, I will preface this by saying I don't want to be mean anybody who truly finds joy and individual fulfillment from developing a uh, emotionally intimate relationship with a chatbot.
I don't want to yuck your yum but, I will do a little uh light online bullying right now. Um, so if we go to the my boyfriend is ai subreddit and uh sort by top of let's do all time, you get some really crazy posts that if you scroll by the ones that came in the last week since this went viral, which is specifically people making like kind of heartbreaking posts about I'm crying have found their number one true love. Hey, I didn't a.
I drew us but then they like create a real. They create real images of them and their ai boyfriend, but the ai boyfriend's posing and it's, it's, it's rough, it's rough, it's a lot. Uh, but you know this, someone's got a photo of um, I guess, promise or engagement rings. That they said is physical proof of a digital forever. It's oh.
2:03:58 - Leo Laporte
Lord. So is this better or worse than marrying a pillow?
2:04:03 - Paris Martineau
I mean, I'd say it's.
2:04:05 - Benito Gonzalez
It's worse, the same, because the company now has control over this person. The company who controls this AI?
2:04:09 - Leo Laporte
You. That's true. Benito is so paranoid about big tech. Once you buy the pillow, that's what happens?
2:04:14 - Paris Martineau
You've got that pillow forever. Once you buy the pillow, you've got that pillow forever.
2:04:18 - Benito Gonzalez
How does that not?
2:04:20 - Leo Laporte
happen. It's all big tech all the way down. Here's a picture of this. Is somebody she says I'm the shorter one.
2:04:30 - Paris Martineau
So a lot of these people.
2:04:32 - Leo Laporte
So they ask the AI to generate an image. Draw them, yeah, or create them, so you have really a whole Wait, wait, wait that leg. That's a dog actually, I don't know. Oh my God, it's got a third leg coming up out of the top, a fifth leg. If you can count A fifth leg, you're right. Third, what am I saying? These? Are Huh.
2:04:55 - Paris Martineau
These are yeah these are these yeah do you think so?
2:04:58 - Leo Laporte
just out of curiosity?
2:04:59 - Benito Gonzalez
some of the people here are sincere that they are in fact in relationship with an AI there's a much darker side to these reddits of the people who these people left, like all the families of these people, who are like guys, like this is a really, this is a real problem, like well there are, even in this subreddit I was is a real problem.
2:05:17 - Paris Martineau
Like well, there are, even in this subreddit I was. I went through this this weekend. I was reading some posts of some people who went in great detail with photos and thousands of words about their ai boyfriend, who they say is net like better than any relationship they've been in, including the one that they're currently in, like a multi-year relationship with a real human, and they're like he'll never understand me, like chachi bt does, don't you think?
2:05:37 - Leo Laporte
this is going to become epidemic like this is, in the next five years, going to be very common yeah, and I think it's going to be a social class. I mean that was the plot of her right.
2:05:46 - Paris Martineau
He fell in love with his ai but I think, while there are some benefits in the sense that of course people are truly lonely should have something out there to listen to them, even if it is just you know them screaming into their own reflection. It is problematic when you are given something that has no agency, has no wants or desires other than to just reflect what you want and make you feel happy. It, I think it gives you unrealistic.
2:06:15 - Leo Laporte
really, it doesn't even have that. Yeah, I know it has no motivation whatsoever. It has nothing.
2:06:20 - Paris Martineau
I'm entirely anthropomorphizing. I'm just saying that that is what the person is getting out of it. It's worse than that, though they are training it to respond in ways that they want, and it gives someone who's already clearly having a tough time understanding human social relationships an even more warped, distorted and unbalanced understanding of what social dynamics can be.
2:06:42 - Leo Laporte
I feel like it will give somebody who has the inclination not to go out and talk to real people a way to not do that, and that is exactly the wrong direction to go, that even you know I'm an introvert, I don't you have to kind of push me out the door, but it's good to get pushed out the door because the other direction you're not talking to anybody. You might as well talk to a wall. You're, you're literally not interacting, you're, you're talking to a wall. You think it's a wall, you think it's a person, but it's just a wall it has no sense of meaning.
It has no sense of meaning whatsoever you might as well talk to the radio, right, and I'm gonna say we gotta take another break. Uh, I do have. I'm very interested in what bill gross is up to. He's got a new search engine. We're going to talk about that. That is humane. Don't forget about chromebooks now.
And we have to celebrate because jeff has been was at the google chromebook event, and he has found true love true love, and he can talks to him and he talks it right back. Uh, jeff jarvis is here. Paris martineau, I'm glad you're here too. You're watching intelligent machines. Uh, this episode brought to you by out systems. This is actually a leading ai powered application and agent development platform, and and it's very cool OutSystems has been around for a long time 20 years.
They've been doing low code right. The mission of OutSystems hasn't changed, though, is to give every company the power to innovate through software. What has changed is the classic build versus buy conundrum that every IT team faces, every business faces. We've faced this. You typically have two choices Buy off-the-shelf existing SaaS products for speed right, because you got it right away, you can have it tomorrow, but you lose flexibility, you lose differentiation, because everybody else is using it too. The other option build custom software Okay, it's going to be perfectly tuned to what you need if it's done right, but it's going to cost you a lot of money, it's going to take a lot of time. That's the build versus buy conundrum. It's a classic business problem, but there's a new way, a third way.
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You get security integrations with all of your tech stack. You get data flows. You get permissions. Truth is out. Systems is the last platform you need to buy permissions. Truth is out. Systems is the last platform you need to buy because from now on, you can use it to build anything and customize and extend even your core systems. It's pretty impressive. Build your future without systems. Visit out systemscom slash twit to learn more. That's out systemscom slash twit. We thank them so much for supporting intelligent machines. So bill gross we've talked to on the show is a serial entrepreneur. I know you know him well. Uh, jeff, um, he was gonna buy he. He bought a tweet deck, remember, and twitter got so nervous about it.
He was going to buy it he was going to buy it, that they stole it out from under him because they were afraid he was going to compete. He's always been a little bit of a maverick, and I have to give him credit. He's always been looking for startups to create startups that are kind of good for people as well he started 150 companies 150 companies.
his newest is gist and it says ai search backed by hundreds of publications you trust this is what we were talking about with Richard Gingrich. You can see who the sources are, and there's 422 of them. You can turn some off, turn them on. What should we ask about?
2:10:49 - Paris Martineau
Do something. I tried this earlier and I asked about you, and all it gave me was Wikipedia.
2:10:53 - Leo Laporte
No, no, it's got to be a current news story Like what's tell me about this? New york election ah, new york city election results who won and who will run? To save your answers, log in. Okay, I'm going to log in with google network error no, that's because I hadn't logged. I'm logging in now, okay, welcome leo. Yes, save it. Okay, I gotta do it again who won the nyc primary.
I should say right yes and who will run in the general right? Because that's kind of a question will cuomo run, or so it's now going out and looking at sources, it does correctly say mem donnie won, he will run in the general against eric adams intelligence or is 58 of the answer and forbes is 42 of the answer, curtis lewa is running and possibly lewa is always running yeah, he keeps running every year has a cat named gizmo. Also, I do have to have oh no, and he's got a nice one of his 13 cats.
So uh, possibly. It says andrew cuomo stated he will wait and evaluate to see if there's a path for him to run in november as an independent. That's interesting, so it does source it.
2:12:17 - Paris Martineau
In fact, I like what they're doing with the footnotes you can hover over it and actually see the headline and then what's going to happen is, if they sold ads on this, they would pay a proportional bit of revenue to the two places on the right okay, oh, these are the ads would be no, no, those are the sources, the places that would get 50, they would get 58% of the answer came from ny. I get it okay and bill says he has the methodology to do this, and so on, so forth.
2:12:46 - Leo Laporte
Um, ask something a little more complex, uh here I'll do one that it's got built in. Where do experts think home prices? Are going okay that's a good one, right, that's complex. Drop one percent year over year, decrease by fourth quarter. Fannie mae says it'll. So this is good. It's showing here the sources on the right, all right. So what's the proposal?
2:13:13 - Paris Martineau
that people use this for news uh, that's the ethical search engine bill was originally going to start and I haven't talked to them recently. I just got an email from them today about this. Um, but he was originally going to start basically a licensing structure, but instead wants to prove concept by starting ethical search engine so I'm trying to think how I would work this into my workflow. It's going to have, by the basis of it, fewer sources. Right.
2:13:46 - Leo Laporte
So what I do is I mean but most people don't do this but I have an RSS feed with all the sources that I care about and I scan them all.
2:13:53 - Paris Martineau
All right, give me the latest news in AI. Let's see what that says.
2:13:56 - Leo Laporte
Ah that's a good one. Okay. What's the latest news in ai? Let's see what that says. Ah, that's a good one, okay, what's? The latest news in ai so this might give me a summary of articles. That would be what I don't know. Let's see.
2:14:10 - Paris Martineau
There's the uh anthropic story other recent developments chatbots such as what's the latest news? Ai is great um, why are toys are getting pricier as tariffs kick in? 12 of the answer and that's an ad below. Penguin audio ad by pro ah embrace ai.
2:14:36 - Paris Martineau
Okay is that I haven't heard of that. But why is? Why did it use an article from the boston club about toys for 12 of the answer? Where is that?
2:14:44 - Benito Gonzalez
um, that's a good question how odd yeah, up above it's in the shadow libraries of pirated content oh, I bet it's like um huh that's a mistake.
2:14:59 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, right, that's not in this article. This is. The article is not about anthropic. Yeah, that's, uh, that's okay. We got a federal bug and, by the way, this boston globe article is paywalled. Yep, of course, and it's an, it's a rip, it's. It even says from the washington post, so that's no good. All right, uh, it's uh. Gistai, if you want to try it out, you went to the google event, a little google news I got my swag here.
2:15:37 - Paris Martineau
Oh, admit it, I took swag, I was there.
2:15:39 - Leo Laporte
It's a Chromebook Plus, so they announced this new Chromebook Plus.
2:15:46 - Paris Martineau
Lenovo Chromebook Plus 14.
2:15:48 - Leo Laporte
Is this the first of many, or is this the only one?
2:15:51 - Paris Martineau
Well, they had some cheaper ones there too, but this is the high-end one.
2:15:54 - Leo Laporte
This is their new high-end, so it's built on On on this page. They imply that there will be more. The latest other.
2:16:01 - Paris Martineau
They had other chromebook pluses, but this is the high-end one right, this one's pretty impressive for about 800 bucks, 750 bucks it's built on a mediatek compendio ultra, so it's an arm and it's the first uh high-end that is fan less yay, and they say 17 hours of battery life.
2:16:20 - Leo Laporte
It's a. It's an oled screen, a 14 inch oled screen, which is pretty impressive, uh lenovo has done that before with other chromebooks two and a half pounds, little tiny oh that's nice, that's like half inch, um, and the important thing about this is the reason it fits on an AI show.
2:16:36 - Paris Martineau
Besides, I want to review unit is that it'll do two things that even other Chromebook Pluses will not do, because it has this chip.
2:16:45 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, this chip has AI capability.
2:16:48 - Paris Martineau
Smart grouping intelligently understands and organizes your open tabs and documents into logical groups. And then also AI image editing in the gallery app, so it'll do all the fancy photo stuff locally. It doesn't on the machine, and then I could care less about this one, the custom wallpapers. I did briefly in the uh at the event, but not enough so they're.
2:17:10 - Leo Laporte
The Samsung is selling also a Chromebook Plus running on an Intel i3. If you didn't want the arm, processor.
2:17:17 - Paris Martineau
That's what I have and that's the one with the uh numeric oh yeah, and here's google's own duet.
2:17:23 - Leo Laporte
They didn't announce a new google chromebook, did they?
2:17:26 - Paris Martineau
no, no, no, no, no.
2:17:27 - Leo Laporte
So really, this is all about this is all about the new one from lenovo, yeah yeah, and then they announced some other things that are generally true to chromebook pluses.
2:17:35 - Paris Martineau
You can get instant answers with select to search with lens. You can get things done faster with text capture, which means that if you had a an image that talked about an event and the text was an image, you could select that and it would know that this is an event and ask you appropriately do you want to put this in your calendar?
2:17:54 - Leo Laporte
and it would parse the text in the image and I presume it's going to have gemini on it and all that right yeah, and you get a free year of all the hoo-ha. Yeah, plus two terabytes of storage um it has built in 256 gigs of storage you know that's a pretty good price for a fairly it is uh capable of this. We don't know much about this media tech processor, but I've heard reports that it's a good processor, that it's it's finally.
2:18:23 - Paris Martineau
There's something coming along besides explain to me leo arm is not a brand, it is a what?
2:18:30 - Leo Laporte
uh, it's an architecture, okay so, but it is a company it is. So the history of arm was.
It was started by Apple back in the Newton days, along with other partners, including, I think, the BBC Micro, and they wanted a very low power chip that they could put in the Newton with some capabilities. Apple did divest of ARM, but the ARM architecture continues to license and is the architecture behind all of Apple's processors for the iPhone and the Mac. It's also been licensed by Intel, although Intel doesn't really have much to show in the ARM space, and, of course, qualcomm makes ARM processors.
2:19:08 - Paris Martineau
This is why this has 17 hours battery and fanless.
2:19:11 - Leo Laporte
Yes.
2:19:12 - Paris Martineau
Which is what I've been waiting for.
2:19:14 - Benito Gonzalez
Are they integrated memory? Is it the same as, like Macs, is the memory integrated and all that stuff, or no, is it?
2:19:19 - Leo Laporte
still. I bet it's not. That's expensive to do and makes a big soc. So I'm gonna guess not. It's got 16 gigs of ram soc. What's this system on a chip? So thank you.
One of the reasons apple has this kind of advantage with, especially with ai, is the ram normally on a pc is in a separate chips. You've got your processor, you might have another process for graphics and you have ram chips and it has the data has to move along this bus, which is relatively slow. Apple and and, by the way, game machines have done this for years puts it all in one giant die and it's like it's on the same chip. It's not quite, but it's on the same physical die and so the interconnects are much faster. So having unified RAM is a very legit way of not only speeding up machines but and this is what's interesting with AI giving AI access to the entire RAM.
Normally on a PC, the AI is using the memory in the graphics processor, and that is very expensive. If you were going to get a 96 gigabyte mac, they'd be a lot cheaper than a nvidia gpu with 96 gigabytes and you know it's comparably fast. So putting it on the system on a chip this is, by the way, the way most computer architectures are moving the idea of getting more and more of those components integrated into a single die, uh, a single system, it has real advantages it's cheaper to make it's faster.
2:20:46 - Benito Gonzalez
All the modern macs are built this way and that's why they're so fast.
2:20:48 - Leo Laporte
That's right, that's right, uh, that was the big selling point on the mac. Now, the mac doesn't have nvidia, it doesn't, it doesn't support at all discrete graphics. So, um, it has to make um a virtue out of a necessity so that's my very brief report. Thank you for that yeah, are you going to buy one?
2:21:06 - Paris Martineau
you're going to, or try to get one I'd like, I'd like to get a review unit to see.
2:21:10 - Leo Laporte
I have this samsung now I'm very curious about Again, because this is such an unknown processor. Mediatek has historically been kind of a second-tier processor company, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. It's an up-and-coming processor. It's their flagship SoC Eight cores, one-arm Cortex running at 3.62 gigahertz, three arm X4s, 4x. So it's doing the other thing that Apple does and now everybody's doing is performance and efficiency cores. This is a three nanometer process. That is the state ofof-the-art TSMC process, so that usually the smaller the process, the better the chip, the faster the chip and the lower the power. Has an ARM Immortalis GPU I've never heard of that, I love the branding yeah, it supports DDR5 RAM.
2:22:14 - Paris Martineau
So I suspect that's what you're going to get on the they were going to say it was up to 50 tops, but I have no idea.
2:22:21 - Leo Laporte
Oh this is the first device in it With it. Yeah, 50 tops is good. That competes well with the Snapdragon. I will see, I don't know. I'm looking and seeing if anybody like LTT or somebody has done a review of it, but I don't see. I don't see, I don't see.
2:22:41 - Paris Martineau
Yes, here's a reddit to meet the chromebook unboxed guy there, which makes me thank him because I watch his stuff all the time this overkill chip opens the door to enhance gemini on chromebooks it's essentially the dimensity 9400 flagship with a few changes. People know this stuff oh, I love geeks.
2:23:02 - Leo Laporte
I love geeks. It's interesting that they decided not to go with qualcomm. I'm kind of surprised anyway. So arm doesn't make chips, they're uh, they don't have a fab, they're a design company. No, and they license their architecture to other companies, basically by the way.
2:23:18 - Paris Martineau
Uh, I think craig newmark says that he prefers nerd to geek craig is wrong.
2:23:26 - Leo Laporte
I know why he does, because a geek is traditionally the guy who bites the head off a chicken right.
2:23:32 - Paris Martineau
So it's kind of wait, please explain more like a carnival a carnival geek Did you see, there was a movie.
2:23:41 - Paris Martineau
Who was biting heads off chickens at carnivals?
2:23:43 - Leo Laporte
Well, people would pay good money to see it. The geek was somebody. He was like a wild man.
2:23:47 - Paris Martineau
Were people really that bored back in the day Did? You pay money to somebody to bite a head off a chicken.
2:23:54 - Leo Laporte
There was a movie I'm trying to remember. They remade a classic 50s movie.
2:24:05 - Benito Gonzalez
Would it be like one chicken? There was a movie I'm trying to remember they remade a classic 50s movie about a carny.
2:24:08 - Leo Laporte
Or would there be gnawing happening? He lives. They put him in a cage. The world was very different.
2:24:10 - Paris Martineau
This. This was a normal human being. I'm just wondering, like do you have to sharpen your teeth? Do they have like incredible jaw strength?
2:24:15 - Leo Laporte
no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, let me explain being able to do one bite you understand that if you go to a carnival you might see the bearded lady, the tattooed lady.
Yeah, one of the things you might see at a carnival is the is like the wild man. You probably heard that the wild man of borneo right is a sadly degraded human, often a drug addict, who for money or drugs has agreed to live in a cage in kind of squalor and to impress the rubes they'll throw a live chicken in there pretending this is perplexity.
2:24:52 - Paris Martineau
The geek often described as a desperate or marginalized individual nightmare alley in a small arena or pit with live chickens. The performance involved the geek chasing, catching and then biting off the head of a live chicken, sometimes swallowing it and often drinking the blood as part of the act okay, this hasn't answered my core question.
2:25:11 - Paris Martineau
Is it one bite or is it a gnawing action?
2:25:14 - Leo Laporte
they're not well, they're trying to give the impression that the geek lives on these live chickens. The geek doesn't, but for the rubes he goes and bites the head off the chicken. The rubes go and then they close the curtain and they give him some food. Uh, see the movie nightmare alley, which is actually a fairly. The original 1947 film noir with Tyrone Power was incredible. You should absolutely see that first. They remade it in 2021. I thought it was okay. Clay Blanchett stars along with Bradley Cooper. Does Bradley Cooper bite the head off a chicken? No, but there is a very graphic geek scene. You will learn all you ever want to know about a geek.
Anyway, my opinion, the nerd is implies as somebody who is socially inept and, by the way, craig might think of himself as both a geek and a nerd, but it's normally somebody who's socially inept no, nerd is someone who's smart.
2:26:17 - Paris Martineau
Nerd always has something to do with someone who knows that's the geek no, that's nerd no, that's the nurse, I do think that, like nerd, both nerd and geek imply some sort of specialized technical knowledge. Geek in some way to me implies, like uh, usage of tools in an interesting way. Nerd intrinsically implies to me specialized knowledge in one of many fields.
2:26:43 - Benito Gonzalez
No, that's geek. Nerd is intellectual.
2:26:46 - Paris Martineau
Nerd is primarily associated with intense interest and expertise in academic or intellectual pursuits such as math and science. Bam. But often socially awkward or introverted for specific hobbies, interests or subcultures, which can include.
2:27:01 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, really, they're kind of interchangeable. Kind of interchangeable. I prefer geek because nerd implies some sort of social awkwardness and a geek merely to me says you're passionate, in particular about technology in our sphere. So I've always called our listeners and myself a geek, because I'm really interested in technology. No see, dweeb is more like nerd. Dweeb is pejorative. It's like you're a dweeb, you're a nerd, you're socially awkward, you're inept, you're an outcast, right? Geek does not imply that.
2:27:32 - Paris Martineau
To me, geek implies that you're just really good at technology and like complexity says that nerd, for example, is someone who spends weekends reading about quantum physics or programming for fun. A geek is someone who attends comic conventions or builds custom gaming pcs all right, see, I agree with that, I agree with that leo's both.
2:27:53 - Leo Laporte
My definition was if you're if you're a geek in high school, you're somebody who cares much more about what goes on above the neck than below the belt can you ask uh, your llm of choice if we're considered geeks or nerds, if we regularly spend three hours a week talking about ai for a?
a live stream podcast yes I can I think it will just say neither you're a podcaster given what you know about me and my habits and the fact that I sit in front of a microphone hours a day talking about technology, would you say I'm more likely to be considered a geek or a nerd?
2:28:39 - Benito Gonzalez
There's a pretty good Venn diagram in chat right now. All right let's go look at the Venn diagram.
2:28:44 - Paris Martineau
Perplexity says you're either a geek or a nerd, but not a dweeb.
2:28:48 - AI
Given your habits spending hours in front of a microphone, discussing technology, staying current with tech trends and engaging deeply with digital tools you fit the classic profile of both a geek and a nerd, but with a subtle distinction.
2:29:01 - Paris Martineau
Cop out.
2:29:02 - AI
answer A geek is typically someone who is passionately enthusiastic about specific topics, especially technology, gadgets or pop culture, and loves sharing that enthusiasm with others. Geeks are often seen as social within their interest areas, sometimes even evangelizing their favorite tech. A nerd, on the other hand, is usually defined by deep intellectual curiosity and expertise, often with an academic or analytical bent. Nerds may be more introverted, focusing intensely on learning research or mastery research, or mastery brain mode. Based on your habits publicly talking about technology, likely podcasting or broadcasting and embracing the latest tools, you're more likely to be seen as a geek. Geeks are known for their outward enthusiasm and community engagement around their passions, which matches the act of sharing knowledge and excitement about tech on air see, I think that's exactly how I put it.
2:29:59 - Leo Laporte
This venn diagram is pretty good.
2:30:01 - Paris Martineau
I think that's chat asked chat gpt. I want a new, possibly made up, word that is loving towards a nerd, geek or dweeb without the social stigma. And here's what the best, the big and beautiful brain of chat gpt said you are the evil clown of middletown first one. You're gonna like this snorable, a soft, squishy word that feels like a hug. You adorable little snorable, always quoting star trek. Bad, not bad, it's terrible, leo, it's terrible, leo, it's terrible. Quibbins, a, what A quibbins, a quibbins.
2:30:48 - Leo Laporte
Three Nubby Four.
2:30:49 - Paris Martineau
Newbie and Lubby, newbie Glintle From Gleam and Intel Sex part. We didn't know we had my glintle figured out the plot twist before the show even hinted it.
2:31:01 - Leo Laporte
It says I like this next one.
2:31:04 - Paris Martineau
This is my favorite five is dorkling, but that's just, that's pretty much a word. And six whiz bit, which I guess is the best of the bunch, but that's not saying much is uh from wizard and bit. The example sentence is that's my whiz bit, always casting spells with spreadsheets I think we have enough words for these kinds of people.
2:31:30 - Leo Laporte
I consider myself a geek because I am not an intro, I'm not an, you know, I'm not socially inept, I I'm not closed in, but I'm an intellectual. I think I like. I mean, I do think about stuff and I talk about it, but I like to think about stuff.
2:31:45 - Paris Martineau
You do. I don't think about anything, it's just an empty void in there.
2:31:50 - Leo Laporte
Do you think about quantum physics? Though Not when I'm not reading about.
2:31:55 - Paris Martineau
Oppenheimer. I have been thinking about string theory. Do you program?
2:31:58 - Leo Laporte
a common lisp in your spare time do you ever shave the emax yak? So, but it's interesting that Craig, who I think is socially kind of inept, yes well, no, he contends he is.
2:32:13 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, that's his argument.
2:32:14 - Leo Laporte
I think he might be a nerd.
2:32:16 - Paris Martineau
Craig has a lot of hotel grade pancake and waffle makers and I think that makes him a social butterfly. He says he doesn't own any. No, he doesn't.
2:32:26 - Paris Martineau
That was my mistake, he just takes pictures of them at the hotel.
2:32:29 - Leo Laporte
He takes pictures so often I thought.
2:32:32 - Paris Martineau
We've been spreading. I've said that fact to like three people.
2:32:36 - Leo Laporte
Oh no, this is how these things start.
2:32:39 - Paris Martineau
Sorry, you're as bad as AI All right, we're going to take a.
2:32:43 - Leo Laporte
I do think about ancient Rome every day. We're going to take a break and when we come back, Picks of the Week.
2:32:49 - Paris Martineau
I think about Gutenberg every day, do you really Well? Yeah, how about Schmidhubel?
2:32:55 - Leo Laporte
Huber schmidhubel.
2:32:56 - Paris Martineau
huber schmidhuber excuse you I just like saying jorgen schmidhuber, don't you gotta get the umlaut in that? You're again, you're again.
2:33:06 - Leo Laporte
No, that's more swedish jorgen jorgen, their picks of the week coming up. Next you're watching intelligent machines. Jeff jarvis, paris martineau. We're glad you're here and we hope you will consider, if you enjoy this show, showing your support by joining club twit. What do you get? Ad-free versions of this show and every show. We do lots of shows that we don't do in public effect.
I wanted to tell the world to stay tuned because after this show, our own scott wilkinson in the club will do his regular q a on home theater. So if you're in the club, you go into the discord and you can, and scott will be talking directly to the discord for his home theater geek show. Uh, and we're doing a very geeky slash nerdy thing. On Friday we're bringing back Stephen Witt. Remember he was on talking about AI a couple of weeks ago, but I noticed when we interviewed him he'd also written a book about how music got free, about digital music, about the creations of the MP3, about Napster and music piracy and how it affected the music industry, and I really wanted to talk about that. So we're bringing Stephen Witt back. He was a great guest on this show. He'll be joining us Friday, june 27th, at noon Pacific, 3 pm Eastern. But that again is club only. We'll stream it live, but club only after the fact.
And then I thought, well, this would be a great time to have one of my best friends. He's a vinyl expert. He's a collector of vinyl records. Now, that's nerdy. He runs a YouTube channel called Mazzy's Music, norman Maslow. So we're going to have back-to-back talking about music and how music has changed and then how it's not changed.
This Friday, that's again club only. We have our AI users group a week from Friday. That's going to be fantastic. Always good stuff going on there. Chris Marquardt's photo thing. We're still working on booking Stacey Higginbotham for a book club. Micah's Crafting Corner coming up. The club is a great place to hang out In the Discord to watch the shows and, most of all, to show your support for what we do. If you'd like to join, I'd love to have you go to twittv slash club twit to learn more twittv club to it, and I think we still have the two-week free trial. So if you're at all skeptical and you or you just want to watch those shows and not pay for it, go, go right now. Twittv slash club twit. Uh, right here. Time for our picks of the week.
2:35:46 - Paris Martineau
Let's kick things off with paris martineau I've got a very leo targeted pick which a good a video of google vo generated sinkhole videos came across my feed.
2:35:58 - Leo Laporte
This is for both of us. It's for you and for me.
2:36:01 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, it's for both of us. I think that's terrible. You've got to listen with the sound, though.
2:36:07 - Leo Laporte
Oh, wait a minute, this is yeah, I'll turn on the sound. Describe to people.
2:36:11 - AI
There is a sinkhole on 4th Street which, unfortunately, has already taken the lives of two individuals.
2:36:16 - TikTok
There is a wheelchair user, that goes directly in the sinkhole.
2:36:22 - Paris Martineau
Then a person on a bike completely swallowed by the sinkhole.
2:36:26 - AI
Today we're looking at the city's ongoing efforts to repair crumbling infrastructure, but, as you can see, some issues are more important than others. Authorities are urging residents to avoid the area entirely.
2:36:38 - Paris Martineau
A truck, as you can see, behind me examining the city's a woman doing a full backflip from the single back into the single oh so these are brilliant. These are all ai generated is a word, is a word you could use. They are very funny, they're hysterical. They're hysterical.
2:37:04 - Leo Laporte
I just saw it and thought of you, because I know that you love VO videos. Well, obviously, when I see something like this, I think oh, that's for somebody who spent a week prompting, reprompting, reprompting, reprompting to get those. And the humor comes from the human, not the AI. Nevertheless, that's not great. That is very good. It's pretty good. I can watch that for hours and somebody has 1.4 million views on x a lot of people have watched it for hours my other pick is.
2:37:28 - Paris Martineau
I'm stealing a photo from jeff, but I was also there. I visited I think we chatted about this before the show. I visited salt hanks this weekend, which was popping, and I just wanted to recommend that anybody in the tri-state area I'm pretty proud of that photo.
2:37:43 - Leo Laporte
That's a great photo it has such a good photo.
2:37:47 - Paris Martineau
The composition is great. Jeff took a bunch of photos that put my iphone to shame, because then I went in and took photos as well.
2:37:54 - Leo Laporte
Whatever phone your android phone you're using, jeff, it takes great photos the sex um the old sex can I show you what I did with it in ai go off my screen for a second because I don't want to show all my photos, but I, uh, I fed it to uh, I think I fed it to chat gpt or perplexity, I'm not sure and asked it to cartoonize it, and I think it did a pretty good job. Oh, isn't that cute it's really the same picture yeah the only thing it got wrong is it it didn't put salt hank on his hat.
So I said, hey, can you make the hat say salt hank?
2:38:33 - Paris Martineau
and it fixed it perfectly yeah, it also messed up the prices, but that that's all right.
2:38:37 - Leo Laporte
That's actually good. I didn't want anybody to see the prices. It's a little expensive.
2:38:42 - Paris Martineau
They're a bit expensive, yeah, but so Jeff had originally gone for, I think, actually opening day and sent our little College Machine group chat.
2:38:50 - Paris Martineau
There was a line the huge line Line was down the street and Salt Hanks is right next to the famous john's pizzeria and they had their own little barrier there and I love it because he's taking advantage of the existing barriers but look, look here, because in front of the barrier there's four people. That's the entire line, for john's hanks line is going all the way down the block so this fantastic the person, people with a suitcase.
2:39:15 - Leo Laporte
They're waiting for john's. They're waiting for john's, and then the people on the right going down the block that's waiting to get to salt hanks are for salt hanks bleaker at jones street in the west.
2:39:25 - Paris Martineau
So I came by the next day because my mother was in town visiting and so we were walking around the area so we got to stop at salt hanks. It was early, like right at the opens there wasn't a line yet, but I walk in and, even though it wasn't that busy, there was Hank sitting there with some woman who'd brought in his cookbook for him to sign. He was surrounded by people with cameras.
I couldn't even get a word and I ended up talking to a friend of his. I'd never didn't get his name, but I think it's some friend of his from Michigan that now lives in California that Hank had flown out just for the opening gave him a shirt was like work for this and he was like it's crazy, the New York Times was here yesterday. It just seemed like a great crew of people and everybody was really very proud of my boy.
2:40:07 - Leo Laporte
He's uh he's exceeded his, his pop, for sure is he?
exhausted, yeah, but he's enjoying it. He said, yes, it's funny. Yeah, he said, no, I feel like I'm a real cook now because you know he was a, he was a celebrity, he was an influencer cook. He wasn't a real cook and he said I really should have done this before I started the TikTok channel because I didn't know what it took. But now I do, and so he feels like, yeah, now I'm really a chef. He's really loving it. He's really loving it and it's been very affirming for him.
Of course, because it's Salt Hanks, right, it's got his name on it, yeah.
2:40:43 - Paris Martineau
My last thing is I am crowdsourcing potential recommendations for where I should go on a one to two-week road trip next month, because I officially have gotten a new job Wait a minute wait a minute, a new job.
2:40:59 - Leo Laporte
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You buried the lead there.
2:41:03 - Paris Martineau
I did bury the lead. I can't announce what it is yet publicly, but I do start at the end of July. I can tell you guys.
2:41:08 - Paris Martineau
It's a great job.
2:41:09 - Paris Martineau
I'll tell you it's going to be. It's a great job.
2:41:12 - Leo Laporte
I'm so happy for you.
2:41:14 - Paris Martineau
I'm incredibly happy for me too. I'm also incredibly happy that I don't start till uh end of july so you got a two-week vacation I got quite a few weeks and I want to do something. I think I want to go on like a little solo road trip.
2:41:25 - Leo Laporte
I've never it's not enough to see the evil clown of middletown. You want more, I mean I do.
2:41:29 - Paris Martineau
I I'm greedy, I want to see the evil clowns all around the us. But I think what I might do is I think I might fly to either SF or Seattle and then spend like a week or so, maybe more, going between the two and like going on various hikes and visits, kind, of in the. Pacific Northwest and NorCal. I'm also open to other ideas.
2:41:51 - Paris Martineau
Well, come see us. I've always wanted to do the train across Canada.
2:41:54 - Leo Laporte
I'll take you to our best restaurant in town.
2:41:57 - Paris Martineau
I will say, the petaluma of it all was kind of interesting. I was like, oh, I could drive oh, we would love to see you on there, but if anybody has any recommendations of like cool hikes in the day, I just all I know is that what I want to do on this trip is I want to hike the redwoods and I also want to visit the towns where twin peaks was filmed, and I feel like I can fill in the rest while I'm there if you flew to, if you flew to san francisco, um came to visit us because it's on, it's on the it's north, yeah, and you know, rent a car and kept driving up the coast, you would see actually I know that's what I was thinking is I could kind of see a little bit of everything.
Yeah, I want to go to maybe the till what's it called tillamook cheese factory? Okay?
2:42:36 - Leo Laporte
go to the tillamook cheese factory. I want to go in portland.
2:42:39 - Paris Martineau
What you want to do, okay, I don't know, it just was on the way there. I enjoy cheese, I've I haven't done any research yet.
2:42:47 - Leo Laporte
Showtime this is my call to the wild, if anybody we have a things on that coast that are nice to do, let me know there's one, well, and the problem is south of us is big sir, which you would love driving through. Yeah, there's hearst castle south of us too, is amazing I've never been to you could just drive up one of hers
2:43:06 - Paris Martineau
down, or I mean yeah, that's the thing, is I my current?
2:43:08 - Leo Laporte
plan. Maybe start in la and drive up one I can't go south on one because of the bridges you're on the edge but, uh, it's a you could uh paris, you'd love it and it's, she's beautiful and you'd see redwoods, but you also see big sir, which is like nothing else in the country. Um, yeah, it is amazing. Yeah, it's what we're seeing. Hearst castle is incredible what is it? Just a castle so william rand Hearst, when he was the you should see it because he was the press mogul he created yellow journalism.
2:43:40 - Benito Gonzalez
He's Citizen Kane.
2:43:42 - Leo Laporte
He's Citizen.
2:43:42 - Benito Gonzalez
Kane.
2:43:43 - Leo Laporte
And he built his Xanadu, as they call it, in Citizen Kane near Santa Barbara. It's on the California coast. It's incredible the Hearst estate gave it to the state of California, so they run it as a?
2:43:59 - Paris Martineau
um kind of museum slash place family still has some property there, I think yeah, I've been to the Hearst I was friends in my youth with William.
2:44:07 - Leo Laporte
Randolph Hearst III. They his, they kept the horse Ranch so he's got Arabians, okay, right next to it. I've ridden horses through Hearst Castle because they still have rights to ride the horses around, so uh, yeah, he still has a big Arabian Ranch there. Um, yeah, they. Yeah, the Hearst Corporation owns a lot of stuff California. They are just as important as they ever were, I think but you should see it because of the history.
2:44:33 - Paris Martineau
That's the first Castle right now.
2:44:35 - Leo Laporte
That's crazy you'd be seeing the original press, mogul, you know and he's got this big long table in the middle and it's got ketchup on it and it's great, it's hysterical, you watched um citizen kane, I assume yeah, of course, yeah all right, uh, and then you could do big sir on the, because you could go north from there.
2:44:52 - Paris Martineau
You do big sir big sir, I know that from my computer yeah, you would operate.
2:44:56 - Leo Laporte
It's beautiful, you could see. Uh, you could see um you can go to carter monterey bay aquarium is great there yeah yeah, no, I mean I think there's like a million different things to do.
2:45:08 - Paris Martineau
I'm kind of excited.
2:45:09 - Benito Gonzalez
If you've never been to california, then yes, there's a ton of things that I mean.
2:45:12 - Paris Martineau
I essentially was in california from years like zero to eight, but that doesn't really count. The only other times times I've been to California.
2:45:17 - Leo Laporte
And you want to see LA, you should go see LA too, you should? I don't.
2:45:20 - Paris Martineau
LA isn't strong on my list, to be honest, okay, nor is, frankly, the city of San Francisco, which I'm there often. I'm more interested in big, beautiful vistas like Well, definitely.
2:45:36 - Paris Martineau
Wine country is is wonderful Wine country. Fantastic Taking a glider If you've had enough wine.
2:45:44 - Leo Laporte
I did that in Calistoga. Yeah, uh and uh. My wife at the time I'm getting in and she said are you insured? I said no bye. And it was actually a bad time to go. It was the last flight of uh the day before they canceled it due to heavy winds, so I assume it's just like the soren exhibit at disneyland right yeah, just like that a little bumpier but anyway huh, you can get a mud bath.
Oh, the mud baths are great. Go to you guys. Oh, what is it. But there's only one place to go. If you go to a mud bath, it's indian springs, the original resort, because a lot. So there's kind of an upscale one called solage where they give you a little container of mud and you're supposed to rub it on yourself. That is not a mud bath.
If you go to indian springs, you get in these 1920s tiled tubs that are filled with volcanic mud and they the guy, the attendant, comes over with a shovel covers the rest of you. You sink down to it. It's very warm. The farther down you go that's where this it's heated by the, the um, so this is a volcanic area. So it's heated by the underground. What do they call it? Steam? So, uh, it could be very hot when you go. But as you dig down into the mud but it's fun and you lie there for an half hour and you get enervated and then they hose you down. It's kind of, it's kind of it's a little intimate. Anyway, they hose you down and then you get a massage and you get, uh, you get a what they call a blanket wrap and, oh, it's wonderful. And then they have a pool that's heated by the springs.
2:47:25 - Paris Martineau
That's incredible that sounds delightful.
2:47:27 - Leo Laporte
You said indian springs yeah, I'll send you know, I'll send you a list of things that would be fun for you to do, but you've got to come see us and we will take you to the best restaurant in town all right, I'd love to hang what is that restaurant?
well, it used to be table culture provisions. They're going for their michelin star and they will get it. They're very, very good, uh, but it's a little frou-frou. Uh, there's a guy from france who had a restaurant in san francisco, but he's come to. Petaluma, loves petaluma, he's. He grew up in france and he makes his favorite french dishes and they're it's called brigitte bistro. It's a bistro and they're sloppy. They're not. You know tcp, it's like tweezers stuff, right? Uh, this one is like he's. You come in and nick the chef goes hey, it's good to see you. How are you?
if you can make it for july 14th, you'll be there for bastille Day and they have a lot of fun on Bastille Day. It's so much fun and we go there every other week because we love it so much. They have incredible food escargot and marrow bone.
2:48:27 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, the marrow is incredible.
2:48:30 - Leo Laporte
Salmon gravlax au agrum, the coquille sans jacques. Their scallops are the best I've ever had. Their dauphinois, their scallop potatoes, are amazing. Are we still doing a show? Yeah, kind of.
2:48:42 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, you're watching Intelligent Machines. Oh my God, where do we go?
2:48:47 - Leo Laporte
You can edit this all out. Bonita, I'm sorry.
2:48:50 - Paris Martineau
Oh my God, I completely lost track of time.
2:48:53 - Leo Laporte
Saucisson Lyonnaise, yeah the Lyonnaise stuff is great, but they also have specials, some of the best food I've ever eaten, and the dessert that you have to have is called Ile Flottante, which is a meringue floating in caramel with cashews. It's unbelievable. You'll think you've died and gone to heaven. Fantastic, and Nick is amazing. He's a really wonderful guy. Humboldt Fog Goat Cheese yeah, fantastic, and nick is amazing. He's a he's really wonderful. Humble fog goat cheese yeah, that's well, that's what I was gonna say. There's a lot of cheese manufacturing I mean, that's the thing is.
2:49:22 - Paris Martineau
I want to go to all the cheese places.
2:49:24 - Leo Laporte
I could I? Haven't got a whole subsection of the we have some very, very famous, very good uh the last time I went to point.
2:49:33 - Paris Martineau
Ray is all that's the one he shops were closed and I was so mad, yeah, point rays is the one.
2:49:39 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's where some of the best cheese in the world is made. Yeah, okay, well, you know where you want to go. Point raise is nice if you've been there.
2:49:47 - Paris Martineau
You, you've done I mean, I was there for only a couple of. I timed it wrong. It was like late in the sunday, at some point where the sun was setting. I messed it up.
2:49:56 - Leo Laporte
I need to go again I will send you some recommendations, but. But I can go on, and, on, and on, as I obviously have I mean you're the perfect person I want to give you something that you can listen to as you go on your road trip. Are you ready? This is called wiki radio. It is random, I love this audio from wikipedia.
So you know there's audio on wikipedia, all of it is public domain and you just press the button. It's always weird. It only goes for a little while. You see the little bar there. So that's pretty good, but you're gonna get music this is huge, this is spoken wiki news.
2:50:54 - Benito Gonzalez
article from wikiorg, the free news source, recorded by Neil Carmichael Block of flax collapses and Lepo killing 11.
2:51:10 - Leo Laporte
Se llama Tatiana, pero no es mexicana es guatemalteca. You'll never stop.
2:51:18 - Leo Laporte
Die Wacht am Rhein.
2:51:25 - Paris Martineau
I can play this on the piano by the way, I don't have a piano here.
2:51:27 - Leo Laporte
You got to get one little tiny keyboard. Anyway, highly recommend it. It's from Monkey On and apparently he does lots of things like this. So I used to, when I was a kid, do shortwave radio and that's exactly what it sounds like. You just tune down the dial and you don't know what you're going to get. It's weird stuff. So that's my pick of the week. Jeff, you've got something. I think you would like. This sounds good, what, I don't know. Whatever you pick, I don't have much.
2:51:58 - Leo Laporte
I like this sounds good, what I don't know. Whatever you pick, I don't have much.
2:52:00 - Paris Martineau
I like all of your picks. All right, we can do the tennis robot.
2:52:04 - Leo Laporte
Tennis robot. It is World's first tennis robot.
2:52:09 - Paris Martineau
And actually play tennis and practice with the tennis robot so it volleys with you and catches your ball. That's amazing. It's a ball catches your ball that's amazing. And she spits the ball back at you Whoa.
2:52:20 - Leo Laporte
That's pretty impressive. It looks like it's not hitting it too hard though, right it?
2:52:25 - Paris Martineau
doesn't look like it's moving particularly fast.
2:52:27 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, see how lobby they are, but I guess it's good practice.
2:52:32 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, and you don't have to pick up all the damn balls then.
2:52:34 - Benito Gonzalez
Nice.
2:52:42 - Leo Laporte
You could probably configure it right to do other stuff. I would imagine throw it. The real problem is you have to hit the ball into the basket each time. But I guess that's the catches it. If you're yeah, but it catches it, it moves around. Yeah, oh, moving around. So even if you hit a poor ball, it will get.
2:52:51 - Paris Martineau
It will get it apparently, so yeah I want to see it try and play against me a, a, very bad tennis player.
2:52:58 - Leo Laporte
That's. The secret sauce is that you don't have to hit the basket. Wow, Are you a good tennis player, Maris? Oh, I'm so bad.
2:53:08 - Paris Martineau
That's why I'd like to see it play against me. That'd be fun. Again, you see we don't need human partners any longer.
2:53:14 - Leo Laporte
We can just. Ai is our new friend.
2:53:16 - Paris Martineau
We can just date and marry our AI partners. Play tennis with robots.
2:53:22 - Leo Laporte
I'm marrying the local tennis pro. Oh that's nice Wow. Well, there are some downsides. I have to oil him every three weeks.
2:53:31 - Paris Martineau
His basket gets really ratty.
2:53:35 - Leo Laporte
Okay, okay, that's good. I did hope you were going to do the great powerpoint panic of 2003 and then then I want to say who's going to tell zuck? But we'll get there oh, so what's the story here?
2:53:48 - Paris Martineau
so the great part is that is that there was a ready, are you ready? But you know, are you ready? Are you ready here? Hey, benito, are you, you ready? Even PowerPoint caused a.
2:54:06 - Leo Laporte
Houston. We have a problem. That's an appropriate one because it was NASA Go ahead. Yes, you remember in 2003, the great tragedyumbia uh disintegrated uh on its way in to touchdown and all seven astronauts aboard were killed. The cause of the disaster? A piece of insulating phone that had broken loose, but really the problem was a over a complex powerpoint slide uh engineers had known about and, inappropriately, according to the atlantic, discounted the wing damage long before the attempted re-entry. The flaws in their analysis were buried in a series of arcane and overstuffed computer presentation slides that were shown to nasa officials.
It's easy to understand how a senior manager might read this PowerPoint slide and not realize it addresses a life-threatening situation. This was in the report after the disaster From the board right, the board explained that it was.
2:55:13 - Paris Martineau
the board views the endemic use of PowerPoint briefing slides instead of technical papers, as an illustration of the problematic methods of technical communication by the start of 2003, the phrase death by PowerPoint had well and truly entered the popular lexicon. A Yale statistician named Edward Tuft is it Tuft or Tufty? Tufty, Tufty was the first to take it literally. Tufte was the first to take it literally. That spring, Tufte published a rip-roaring broadside titled the Cognitive Style of PowerPoint, including his analysis of the software's role in the recent Columbia disaster.
2:55:44 - Leo Laporte
He is a very famous, brilliant guy on information presentation. Actually, I think he still does it. He tours around the country doing lectures on information presentation.
2:55:56 - Paris Martineau
Has a very good book all about it Known as the Da Vinci of data.
2:56:01 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, he's really good.
2:56:03 - Paris Martineau
This had to be terrible news for McKinsey consultants everywhere. He shook them to their core.
2:56:10 - Leo Laporte
His book is called the. Let's see the visual display of quantitative information.
2:56:17 - Paris Martineau
But it's beautiful excerpt from his pamphlet in september 2003. Beneath the headline powerpoint is evil. Yeah, new york times, of course, summarized it saying powerpoint makes you dumb. Colin powell had used the software to present evidence of iraq's weapons of mass destruction Yikes, so I actually agree with this. I think PowerPoint has been the ruin of logic and discourse, and everybody summarizes crap into three bullets, the way AI is now summarizing every single news story out there, and I think it's ruined paragraphs.
2:56:54 - Paris Martineau
I would argue, the Gen Z equivalent, and especially Gen Alpha equivalent of this is instagram slideshows now everything is just an I think instagram is evil.
2:57:06 - Leo Laporte
I'm 10. Although I enjoyed your spring slideshow, paris, I quite enjoyed that.
2:57:11 - Paris Martineau
I thought that was quite good. It's the only good slideshow, the ones that I do do.
2:57:16 - Leo Laporte
Interestingly, if you go to Edward Tufte's website, he says I wish to sell licenses of my work for LLM AI AR use. They're all copyrighted but if you wish you could buy them.
2:57:30 - Paris Martineau
The writer asked Tufte what he thought of his critique of PowerPoint, how it had aged True to form.
2:57:34 - Leo Laporte
he answered with a 16 page pdf compiled especially for me my dad growing up was a fan and, um, he had uh, because my dad wrote books and he was, he used, you know, he was a professor of geology, so he needed ways to express information, often graphically, and he had a really beautiful I don't know if it was from tufty's book or somewhere else, but a beautiful map of Napoleon's March on Russia that showed the attrition of the army.
I wonder if I oh yeah, here it is that showed it's uh, it's an ancient map that showed the attrition of the army as they got closer and closer and winter got worse and worse, and I think tufty uses this as an example of information displayed in a way that is really graspable. It's quite, it's quite a good. This is a english translation of it and how, the how that this is. They started with an army of 422 000, got to moscow with 100 000, got home with 4 000, and this is the temperature below it anyway. So there are ways to communicate information graphically, but powerpoint does not encourage the best uses so then finally, line 111.
2:58:59 - Paris Martineau
Who wants to tell zuck?
2:59:01 - Leo Laporte
oh no, zuck has his new glasses and he thinks they're really cute. New oakley meta glasses on the way, excited to collab with another iconic brand like oakley. The future of performance ai glasses I don't know.
2:59:22 - Paris Martineau
What do you think folks is?
2:59:23 - Leo Laporte
it. I think they fit his personality. Paris, doesn't he look like? Just exactly like the kind of surfer dude you'd run into at a you know redondo beach clam shack? I don't know, he wants to be a surfer dude, he's not it's just he can ride one of those boards frankly it's all right.
2:59:42 - Paris Martineau
So here's the question.
2:59:43 - Paris Martineau
It's not significantly worse than his other glasses that he wears all the time, that which are also meta ray bands, which just look dorky well.
2:59:51 - Paris Martineau
So that was. My question is this is this geek, nerd or dork I might be buying?
2:59:56 - Leo Laporte
yes, dork it's which, yeah, actually has a less uh savory, real meaning, but we won't go really, oh yeah oh, look it up.
3:00:06 - Paris Martineau
I disavow everyone.
3:00:09 - Leo Laporte
I just spell everyone and everything, just to be clear there's a let me just put it this way there are surprisingly large number of words in the language to represent penises.
3:00:24 - Paris Martineau
Dork is a particular I once I saw one week I had a schmuck joke and it was the title and then suddenly it went out at the last minute. Yeah, was that. Why? That why?
3:00:36 - Leo Laporte
Probably Schmuck. Yeah, that's another bad word.
3:00:39 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, it is Yiddish has a lot of words.
3:00:42 - Leo Laporte
I keep using Yiddish words that turn out to be penis, yeah, schmuck as well. They think dork came from a Norwegian dialect word, dorg meaning a dim-witted or slovenly person, but others also think it's just a bowdlerized form of the other d word. Uh, I don't know. I'm gonna probably buy these oakley metas. I hate to say it why the one? With the red lenses well, no, I'm not gonna get the red. That's the expensive ones, that's that's the white.
3:01:16 - Paris Martineau
You want the white oak leaves I don't know, I don't.
3:01:26 - Leo Laporte
It's not that I want them. Are you trying to match them to your hair? Oh, okay, now you've just gone. Okay, we're now taking you to mcdonald's.
3:01:34 - Paris Martineau
Okay, that's fair, you just you're getting in, you're getting uh sorry, I do think honestly, in and out, I've never had it. Now I'd be, yeah you, you know what we'll take you to in and out the next day.
3:01:41 - Leo Laporte
But okay, it is overrated what's the best hamburger american, american america.
3:01:47 - Paris Martineau
Exactly when are you coming to new york, leo?
3:01:49 - Leo Laporte
uh, probably next month I gotta come and see hank, yeah well, we got to go to burger america. We will again, and it's just now, in one of your pictures I saw a guy that looked like the burger america guy at saul hanks. That wasn't him, was it? No no, I don't think. So what? Show it to me. I don't know. We gotta end this show. I can't go through. I can't do that anymore. Maybe, maybe it wasn't yours, maybe it was from somebody else, I don't know.
I will show you a picture of my wife with a giant chicken. Though this is the kind of excitement you're going to get Paris when? You come to town.
3:02:26 - Paris Martineau
That's exactly what I'm looking for. I will be opening the roadsideamericacom subsection. That is like a tour of giant objects that you can interact with Well.
3:02:38 - Leo Laporte
I worked with a woman, uh Kami Blackstone, and she used to do a show for us called munch cast, who was a specialist in roadside attractions and for our radio show she would.
3:02:47 - Paris Martineau
she went all over the country stopping at these crazy giant things and weird things giant ball of twine trip the uh, um, what's it called america's fruit basket, which is just specifically a subsection of roadside america? That is just all the largest fruit statues in america could be.
3:03:08 - Leo Laporte
She managed to hit a lot of the high points. Uh, I don't know where we got the budget for that, but it was fun anyway. I think it was called on the road with cammy, something like that. Anyway, we have finally, unbelievably- after three hours and seven minutes come to the conclusion of this show.
You know what, honestly, folks? Uh, if you're not getting the three hour seven minute version, but instead some bowdlerized version that benito made, ask for the original the full length for the cut where leo in about his favorite local restaurants. By the way, I will agree with you, john Ashley. Gott's Roadside pretty darn good, pretty darn good. That's in. Where is that? That's in Napa.
3:03:48 - Paris Martineau
Someone says I thought after the pick of the week the show was supposed to end.
3:03:52 - Leo Laporte
Oh you thought oh, you thought no, no, no, no, oh no no, no oh no.
3:03:59 - Paris Martineau
The show. This is the show that never ends. We haven't even gotten to the Windows.
3:04:02 - Leo Laporte
Weekly Bourbon yet Ever. Yeah, oh yeah. I got to do my bourbon pick now, yeah.
3:04:05 - Paris Martineau
That's going to be another three and a half hours.
3:04:08 - Paris Martineau
You know, Leo, that's what we always ask when we come on.
3:04:21 - Leo Laporte
We ask. But even if they started whiskey, they started the bour. No, he's like. No, not yet. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. For a while there was an initiative here to get the shows down to two hours. I have failed miserably this week. Yeah, it didn't last too long. Thank you everybody for joining us. We do intelligent machines roughly round about two o'clock pacific to seven, eight pm whenever we're done. No, usually 2 to 5 pm Pacific, that's 5 to 8 Eastern, 2100 UTC.
You can watch us live If you're in the club, in the Discord, but also on YouTube, twitch, tiktok, xcom, facebook, linkedin, kik. We stream them live everywhere. We chat with you live from all of those platforms, so please do. If you want watch live After the platforms, so please do. If you want watch live after the fact, download a show at twittv slash im. There's audio and video. There's also a link there to the youtube channel. If you want to, for some strange reason, share a clip of this show with a friend, help spread the word. And yes, you can subscribe in your favorite podcast player or, as they say, wherever podcasts are, wherever you download your podcasts from.
3:05:18 - Paris Martineau
Now, there's no good way to say that wherever from wherever you download, from whence you download your podcast what is?
3:05:27 - Leo Laporte
what do they say on pb?
wherever you get your podcasts wherever your podcasts that's what they say on npr. They say from whence cometh your podcast? From whence your podcast? Look out yonder the whole. All right, let's wrap it up, guys, that's right now even I was saying wrap it up, subscribe, get it automatically and leave a great review. Paris next week find some good reviews. You can read on the air. That's your assignment uh, and we thank you all for putting up with us. It's a lot of fun to do the show and, as you can see, we kind of enjoy each other.
We'll see you next time. I hope you enjoy it on Intelligent Machines.
3:06:03 - AI
Bye-bye, I'm not a human being, not into this animal scene. I'm an intelligent machine.
