FLOSS Weekly Episode 691 Transcript

FLOSS Weekly Episode 691 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Doc Searls (00:00:00):
This is FLOSS Weekly. I'm Doc Searls. This week, Sean Powers. And I talked to Maxi Reynolds about subsea cloud. This is a hugely weird and important topic. This is putting servers underwater in the ocean and making a business out of it. And this seems to have a really big future, shorter latencies, all kinds of features you wouldn't think were possible and kind of unusual, but boy, is it interesting? And that is coming up.

TWiT (00:00:33):
Next podcasts you love From people you trust. This is TWiT.

Doc Searls (00:00:45):
This is FLOSS Weekly episode 691 recorded Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 sub cloud. This episode of FLOSS Weekly is brought to you by I R L an original podcast from Mozilla. IRL is a show for people who build AI and people who develop tech policies posted by bridge. Todd. This season of IRL looks at AI in real life search for IRL in your podcast player, and by bit warden, get the password manager that offers a robust and cost effective solution that can drastically increase your chances of staying safe. Online. Get started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or get started for free across all devices as an individual user@bitwarden.com slash TWI. Hello. Again, everybody everywhere. I am doc SOS. This is floss weekly and not only everybody everywhere in the world, but, nder the ocean, as well as the topic today, I am joined by Sean Powers himself who appears to be on land, where he was when I saw him in a rectangle a few minutes ago. There

Sean Powers (00:02:00):
He is. I was gonna say, if everybody's hoping I'm gonna be like underwater. I can't pull that filter up quick enough, but

Doc Searls (00:02:05):
We're, we're talking Sube today. So, and, and I even blew the intro is gonna do on that, but that's how it goes. So, so you're familiar with this yet. Sean. We've had, I

Sean Powers (00:02:17):
Am joking guys. I am. And there, so there's a lot of really cool topics to talk about today. It's gonna, I think it's, I think this is one of those episodes where we're gonna wish that it was longer because yeah, some episodes are like, oh, what else could we talk about this? Isn't gonna be one of those. I

Doc Searls (00:02:32):
Don't think I know. And we got off to a late start because nothing worked. I just, I just arrived back in Bloomington, Indiana where I am. And after an 800 mile drive from New York city, because the vacation we were going to take in new England visiting many old friends, celebrating my birthday in Cape Cod, where I got this t-shirt but it's

Sean Powers (00:02:54):
A lobster

Doc Searls (00:02:56):
Show, a lobster, a lobster from Cape Cod anyway that, that isn't happening. <Laugh> so I'm in the basement back in Bloomington and it was all prepared for all kinds of cool stuff, but this is a great show and I, I, so we're gonna, we're gonna jump right into it. Our, our guest today is Maxi Reynolds who came to his via Dave tad, who has another earlier guest who has nothing but interesting people to introduce us to. And her topic is subsea cloud that's cloud under the water. So <laugh> so under I see under the sea. So, so Maxi welcome. Welcome to the show you see, there she is. <Laugh> for those of you not visually impaired, there, there she is. So tell us, well, first tell us, you know, not so much about that, but where, where, how do you get to this? Where, I mean, what, what's your backstory on this? As much of it as you can let us know,

Maxi Reynolds (00:03:56):
Like be prepared to

Doc Searls (00:03:58):
And, and where are you? Are you for, are you you're above the water right now? I, I imagine

Maxi Reynolds (00:04:03):
No, no. I'm way under. No, yes I am in I'm in Los Angeles. Like I couldn't be in a dryer place. I so, so I live in Los Angeles, but I'm from Scotland. I've been in America for about 15 years or so. My accent's gotten worse. It's gotten stronger. It stays with me. It will not leave. <Laugh>

Doc Searls (00:04:24):
I can understand you. So that's a good kind sign. <Laugh>

Maxi Reynolds (00:04:26):
That's good. That's, it's, that's positive, I would say, but some people still require some subtitles, so it, it becomes an issue here and there, but, and I've got a really good Southern accent. So if people can understand, we can switch to that later, but mm-hmm <affirmative> basically I worked offshore oil and gas for about 10 years as a, as a robotics pilot in our re pilot. So our res are like large robots that we put underwater to do work down there. So on pipelines on, well, you know, a lot of like the oil infrastructure so that we can all run our lives. And also some, some like NA geo type things. We, we do that under, under the water too. So I'd done that for about 10 years. And then I had been offshore for such a long time that I'd racked up a lot of long distance education because when you're offshore, you are month on month off, but you're also 12 hours on 12 hours off.

Maxi Reynolds (00:05:28):
And so I had like a few degrees just despite myself. Like I took difficult ones. And one of them was computer science. So I ended up with a job from PWC in Australia, and I got a job on their graduate team, but I was really old for a graduate. Like there was all these 20 year olds running around and like drinking on a Tuesday. And I was like in my thirties at this point, but they taught me ethical hacking, and I got kicked out of Australia, not for hacking, but visa. And I came back to the states and I went into like a, a subset of cyber security, which is red teaming or social engineering. And that sort of, that took me a lot of, a lot of places. And one of the things that you do is aside from the logical hacking, you also break into places.

Maxi Reynolds (00:06:20):
So you're physically breaking into them. So we are breaking into like some government departments pharmaceutical headquarters prisons. So like one of the few people on earth to have broken into a prison and also data centers. And so I sort of had this intersection, this almost like random alley where I had this sub engineering background, and I also had this new insight into data centers and what's in them, why it's important. And also that you can physically break into them. Some of them are really difficult, but it's, it's rarely impossible. And so I come back to Subi engineer and designed these pods to put under the water where the, the physical security is absolute. So are you glad you, that was long <laugh> so, yeah.

Sean Powers (00:07:15):
Wow. So, yeah. All right. So, so you, you had me at, I get to drive robots under the ocean with a joystick. I mean, that's pretty much every, you know, every young person's dream job. I kind of wish I got to do that, but it's interesting for me though, and this is, this has actually nothing to do with, with the technology, but I'm curious, so you, you drove these robots. How much time did you actually spend much time in the water itself or, or, I mean, is your experience with the ocean pretty dry

Maxi Reynolds (00:07:49):
It's <laugh>, it's fairly dry. So, so essentially you sit on a vessel or a rig on an oil rig and we've got like 20 foot container. So everybody else gets sort of an in-house place. We get put on top with a container, actually two. So one's like a tooling container. And then that other one, which you will like, is sort of like a big, like PlayStation Xbox room. So essentially you go into this container and it's got probably eight screens on the wall. Most of the time, like eat like TVs, televisions, and you have like these two pilot, like gamers chairs essentially, and then some joysticks and the screens are for the various different tooling that we have on the ROV. So it's got eyes, it's got cameras, it's got arrows, so you can see what they're doing. It's got so narrow, so you can sort of see what's around and we just sit on that vessel and, and, and do some work. And so that's pretty the most, sorry, go ahead.

Sean Powers (00:08:50):
No, no, I was just gonna say, well, based on my video gaming skills, I would not be hired because I mean, I would, would just crash into the robots and, and Phish would kill me just by swimming pass. But it is, it is interesting. That was the, the, the switch over to like a cyber security. Was that just happenstance? Is that just something you had interest in or did the, the job itself kind of push you in that direction?

Maxi Reynolds (00:09:13):
It was haphazard. So I, I just had, I kind of, I left Scotland very early and, and, you know, started like adult life very early and had to like swore to have the most interest in life possible. And that sort of subsided at some point, but I, I gave, like, I had a good run at it, so <laugh>, but basically working offshore, I just had time. I just had a lot of time to get these degrees. And one of them was computer science because I had all of these people around me saying like, computers are the future. And I was thinking, aren't computers already here. Wasn't I born with one, like

Sean Powers (00:09:53):
Driving a robot. I think we're there.

Maxi Reynolds (00:09:55):
Yeah. Like, I think we've got there guys, but they were sort of right. And, and, and in terms of like, of it's more and more of the future. And so that the, the long, the haphazard long distance computer science degree was a big help. And, and, you know, I had like degrees in, I don't wanna see like BS, but I had degrees in where I was never gonna make much money. So like, you're not gonna make a lot of money off philosophy <laugh> or, or make like a decent living. And I was used to like making a good living. And so that was kind of the push. And then I got to move to Australia. So I was like, bye, see. Yeah. And I went, it was really enjoyable

Sean Powers (00:10:38):
Until, until you had to leave because of visa, not

Maxi Reynolds (00:10:41):
Until they relief, but well, well, and it's not that they well, and they did arrest me just one time. So you perform Osen, you do all of these things as a pen tester or logical hacker. And I was very, very new. And so I, like, I thought I knew what I needed to know, but it turns out you can only know what you don't know, sort of thing. You can only know you don't know things. So I was sort of, and we got hired PWC, got hired for the state's water company, and I switched the water off <laugh> by accident. And instead of just believing like sort of ACR trees are, the simplest is, is probably true, which is that I'm, I was really new, a bit ditzy and that I accidentally had turned it off. They thought I was a Russian SP and I was like, but I'm Scottish. And they were like, you sound Russian. And I was like, you've never been to Scotland. <Laugh> we all sound like this. So I, I just didn't apply for a second visa in case I had to go into a secondary interview and be like, that's interesting. Choose to be in a spy. I

Sean Powers (00:11:47):
Know. Yeah. And I think, I think it's fair that we should clarify. When you said earlier that you break into places and break into jails and buildings, this, you were hired to do that. I mean, you didn't start like a rogue band of oceans 11, no jeweling ring or anything like that. I mean, that's, that's kind of the whole it's idea idea behind. Yeah. Right. It's probably more profitable.

Maxi Reynolds (00:12:08):
But

Sean Powers (00:12:09):
So the, you know, pen testing and, and red team, which I, those two terms are often used interchangeable. And, and I know that there's a separation. I think that the, the based on the, I, I recently taught a course on pen testing and a lot of the pen testing stuff, if you wanna get certified is red team stuff. I mean, it's, it's far more about the social engineering maybe than it used to be, you know, pen testing was often just software based stuff. But yeah, my, my take as I was teaching the course and, and to be clear, I didn't finish the course because I just didn't enjoy it. Right. I didn't. Yeah. I, because I felt like I was teaching people to basically start a crime ring <laugh> yeah. I mean, I was hoping the people watching were using it for good, but I mean, these, you know, the tactics and, and what I found and, and you've done this far more than me, I mean, and in the real world, it seems to me that human meets tend to be the weakest link in almost every system. And I mean, is that fair? That was my take, as I was teaching, it seemed like while there are weaknesses in software yeah. People are so much easier to manipulate and in my life, there are people who have been scammed so many times that I think that's just continues to be true.

Maxi Reynolds (00:13:25):
Yeah. So you you've hit a few points there. The, the first thing is that, and I have a, an entire book on this that I'll just tell you about, you don't have to read it essentially. The end of it says that we're not, we're not dumb. Like it, we're not, there's a say, and it's something like it's human stupidity is the biggest vulnerability. It's not that it's not stupidity. It's simply that we're human. So we have these biases, we have these tendencies and essentially con men. And that's what you are if you're a social engineer for the good, but essentially you're still manipulating people for some end goal, which ultimately is they're the betterment of their security, but at the time it's just to get past them and you have to be very mission focused. You have, you can't, you can't be thinking about how much this is going to hurt them, or, you know, how bad you feel.

Maxi Reynolds (00:14:16):
You just have to push on and not everybody can do that. And I don't know where I stand on that morally in terms of, if you can push past it, what does that mean about you? I, I kind of, I would give that no thought because I can push past it. But basically humans are vulnerable. And so the more that we bring that up as a topic, raise awareness and expose it, I think probably the better off society will be to know that, Hey, there are people out there sort of preying on you as the receptionist, as the security guard, whatever it may be. And then pen testing is in, in and of itself, there are a lot of software vulnerabilities that can go years unnoticed as we see it everywhere.

Sean Powers (00:15:02):
Yeah. For the record. I just to clarify, I, it, wasn't something I could use. I don't think somebody's ability to you know, see the forest for the trees and be able to realize that there's a deeper good. That that's a good thing. I don't think that's a moral failing mean think so. Surgeons, surgeons cut people open all day long. Yeah. If I did that, it would be very evil <laugh> but you see there's

Maxi Reynolds (00:15:24):
I can do that.

Sean Powers (00:15:25):
Yeah. Yeah. I could be there, you know, I, I literally faint at the site of blood, so, I mean, I'm not gonna be a surgeon anytime. But yeah. I just, I wanna be clear, I personally had a difficulty doing that, but I don't think that somebody who can, has a, a moral feeling, I didn't wanna. Okay, good. Imply that. And I apologize if I did.

Maxi Reynolds (00:15:40):
No, no, you didn't. You didn't, it's just, it sort of comes up the it's a, it's a natural sort of stopping point that we all ponder when we are inside. Like, oh, cuz you do feel bad. You know, one of the worst things that I remember feeling was this overwhelming sense of guilt because I was talking to this really old and I mean like sort of like he was, this was his part-time job after he'd retired. So I think he's definit was like

Sean Powers (00:16:07):
In his forties, the guy's so old. I'm just kidding.

Maxi Reynolds (00:16:11):
He was in his eighties. He definitely was. And I, he talked to me on the way out. I planned to ignore him. Cause I already knew that I was gonna like have this internal just dicho me of, yeah. Okay. Target him and then no, like stop. So I was, he mess on my way out and ask mother. So I was like, oh, hello. He said he started making polite conversation and it was so easy to get information from him. And I felt really bad and I sort of thought to myself, it's, it's like human Intel. It's, it's another form of open source essentially. And I was thinking, God, do I put this in the report? I really don't want to, what if he gets fired? This is really bad. And like, I didn't put everything in the report. I couldn't do it. And that's te that's, that's the wrong way to look at it. I sh you know, that didn't help him get any better and it didn't help the company. So let's, let's move on. Let's let's not talk about the company <laugh> I don't want him to <laugh>.

Doc Searls (00:17:11):
Well, I have to I have some questions about the whole open source thing, cuz we're here open source. And some other, another quick question, but first I have to let everybody know that this episode of Flo weekly is brought to you by I R L and original podcast from Mozilla. IRL is a show for people who build AI and people who develop tech policies. It's hosted a Bridget Todd. This season of IL looks at AI in real life. Who can AI help, who can at harm? The show features fascinating conversations with people who are working to build more trustworthy AI. For example, there's an episode about how our world is mapped with AI. The data that's missing from those maps tells as much a, a story as the maps themselves. You'll hear all about the people who are working to fill in those gaps and take control of the data.

Doc Searls (00:18:06):
There's another episode about gig workers who depend on apps for their livelihood. It looks at how they're pushing back against algorithms that control how much they get paid and seeking new ways to gain power over data, to create better working conditions for political junkies. There's an episode about the role that AI plays when it comes to the spread of disinformation around elections, a huge concern for democracies around the world. And another episode explains the role that AI plays when it comes to elections and the spread of misinformation and hate speech. All of this by the way, is very close to my heart and mind because it seems to me, we're constantly trying to fight this stuff while we have to use it because we need machines to extend our own intelligence while they acquire intelligence of their own. How can we reconcile those? This is, this is all over that stuff. And it's really important. So search for I L in your podcast player will also include a link in the show notes. My thanks to I R L for their support.

Doc Searls (00:19:17):
So maxi, the first thing is I, I dunno if you answered this already or not, cuz I was busy dealing with a bunch of technical issues while Sean was taking over. But the platforms you worked on were those in Southern California? I, I ask because I live in Santa Barbara normally and I'm looking out on those, on those platforms from there. Yeah. And it's always been a kind of fantasy of mine to go out there and like, you know, see how they do what they do. Were you at any of those or were you

Maxi Reynolds (00:19:45):
I've never been offshore in California. I have been offshore in the Gulf, but not in California. I would even, I would, we can steal it. We can commander a boat and go out there if you like,

Doc Searls (00:19:55):
Oh please. Okay. Let's take, let's put a bookmark on that. Let's

Maxi Reynolds (00:19:59):
Do that. This is,

Doc Searls (00:20:00):
This is a sure thing. Let's do it

Maxi Reynolds (00:20:02):
There. I really like the sort of ecosystem of a, of an oil rig. It's it's interesting. And it's busy and it's sort of like masculine, I suppose. Well, I don't suppose it is. But it's so, but it's just enjoyable. Just things work systematically. There are processes for everything. I kind of feel the same Zen and sort of hospitals and airports. Although not airports just now, but you know, it's just process driven things work. If they don't work, we fix them and then you go to sleep. It's great. I, I, I like it

Doc Searls (00:20:39):
And it, and it has to work. I mean, there's so many points of failure. You can't, you can't tolerate, I mean like in an airplane, like, well we hope this thing goes, you know? Yeah.

Maxi Reynolds (00:20:48):
<Laugh>, we're hoping for the best guys

Doc Searls (00:20:50):
Out there and mention the, you know, the ones in California are actually in fairly shallow water. But the ones in the golfer, like, you know, taller than the, than skyscrapers under the water and then the north sea back in your Homeland, that's some of the most hostile conditions on earth. So

Maxi Reynolds (00:21:10):
Let's see. Yeah. Very difficult environment to work in. Yeah.

Doc Searls (00:21:16):
Well we put a bookmark, a number of things there, but so, so tell me about the open source side of this because you know, it's, there's a lot there.

Maxi Reynolds (00:21:25):
So the, the, the extent of like anything open source that we use is still like ENT. It's still cuz I should say to sort of back up and then reverse into this, I'm an infrastructure provider with these pods. I I'm the room or the building that the servers go in. I don't have much to do with what is happening on the servers. So where I use like ENT is actually in terms of trying to find geohazard information on the CBED are about the CBED. So there's a lot of surveys being done where they're already assets and that's typically where I want to deploy. I don't want to deploy very often, you know, where there is nothing else subside. I need to be where there's power. And I need to be where there is already submarine cables, which are about 99% of our internet.

Maxi Reynolds (00:22:20):
There are the backbone of the internet. So I use like open source intelligence to gather that information. So there's a really interest in sight. I think it's something like, you know, submarine, cables.com and it shows you all of the cables around the world where they're connected to. So that's sort of open source material. And so I think, okay, where else, where can I deploy and where their power cables. And then I also use it to try to discover where there are going to be or where there are operational wind farms, things like that. So like that's the extent of our use, but it's, it's a lot of data there's a lot out there, especially if you know, the, the search terms or can work well in that environment in terms of like pulling up information and also then not just pulling up the information, but being able to thread the needle as you go, cuz you'll find information that will lead you to more information, which is actually the real skill in, in open source intelligence. So yeah,

Sean Powers (00:23:26):
And, and to be clear, so we say OSN, you know, it's kind of the, we're saying that, but yeah, open source intelligence and in the, you know, and we, we kind of transitioned from breaking into places and systems and, and stuff into the a different aspect of that because open source intelligence is not just about like social engineering people. This is just information that is openly available on any topic anywhere. I mean intelligence, meaning, you know, information and then open. So things like using it to locate your, your center that, I mean, that's, that's brilliant and that's incredibly awesome because in a, in a not open type environment that could be information that, you know, a government would keep to itself or, and I could easily see a government saying, well, all this information is national security. I mean, if everybody knows yes information on the sea floor then they can, you know, attack us.

Sean Powers (00:24:18):
So it's awesome that that is open yeah. You know, to, to use and, and to explore. So, I mean, that's, that's really awesome. I'm, I'm a little bit curious and, and pretty, I'm not gonna be able to restrain myself much longer before I ask for lots of details. But we talked before the show started because I couldn't shut up and I couldn't, I couldn't not ask questions before the show your history with, with you know, red teaming, penetration testing, open source intelligence on people and stuff obviously gives you a cybersecurity mindset when you approach things. And one of the things that makes a, an undersea data center so attractive is that even if you steal somebody's key, it's not like you're gonna dive down a hundred meters to open the door. Right. I mean, so there's a certain level of security just in proximity to the bottom of the ocean, the environment. So that that's, that's awesome in that, you know, it's, I mean, security, geographic security. I don't even know what the term for that would be. Yeah.

Maxi Reynolds (00:25:19):
<Laugh>, I'll, I'll take that. I'm gonna write that down. Yes. Yeah,

Sean Powers (00:25:21):
There you go. That works. There

Maxi Reynolds (00:25:22):
You go.

Sean Powers (00:25:24):
So I get why it's awesome. Also the, the whole idea of, of cooling and, and being carbon neutral appeals to me personally, I don't know, you know, I don't know where that stands and it's, it's almost an opposition kind of to the oil industry that we've talked about. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, they would like to be carbon neutral in, in every way, but they're literally digging up carbon in, in anyway. That's a whole nother topic. Yes. I am curious. Can you give us you know, how many details can you give us about what is actually on the bottom of the ocean that, that you're managing here? You said that you, it, you don't have the server infrastructure. You're basically the data center. How does that work? How do people put things in? Give us all the dates.

Maxi Reynolds (00:26:03):
Okay. Right. <Laugh> so, okay. Let's, let's start the end. So I am the infrastructure provider. I simply provide like the walls of it and the racks, but not the servers themselves. I go to Oracle, I go to those sorts of large providers and they bring their clients. Typically there are other scenarios, so the military, but again, not my servers, they put their, their servers in or a direct client. So, you know, name Facebook they, they still provide their own servers. I just provide like this engineering feat. And so that's site one, but the physical security is sort of absolute for in and in a few ways. So we do a few things. We body them subse. We body them under the sea floor. Sometimes for some factions, we might body them under the sand. If it's a sand seabed, there are a lot of different types of sediment and seabed, but if it's sand, we can body them.

Maxi Reynolds (00:27:09):
But what we always do is we have offshore like big suction cups, you know, the things that you stick, like children's toys that stick to our window sort of thing. Yeah. They're sort of like that. We, we take them and we they're just big cups upside down cups and push them onto the, to the seabed. And it, it creates like a vacuum and that keeps things very steady. But what we also have are these guide posts that we essentially lock the pods into, and you really will struggle to get those out. Even if you're sort of hostile nation looking to steal this country's data, you will very much struggle to get them out without the proper tooling. And even if you have the proper or tooling we have mechanism mechanisms built in that. It would still be almost impossible. And we have sensors, things like that.

Maxi Reynolds (00:28:03):
So cuz it's a huge disruption to be pulling a pod, a 20 foot pod up. So we would know about it quite quickly. But also we have this sort of built in mechanism that if you pulled it off of this guide post of this like security post, if you want through this lens, the, the da the information would be destroyed. You would, you would destroy it by trying to steal it sort of thing. So we have those things built in and we had to, and then on top of that, we try to sit below where submarines can go to. So the best submarines in the world can go to sort of 400 feet in the water before you know that before they cannot be there anymore. And we can go down to about 3000 meters, about 9,000 feet. We don't always sit that low. We just need to sit lower than them. So we do that for physical security too. And again, the cybersecurity is the same. We, we, we suffer from the same things that everyone else does. The, the providers suffer from the same threats, but the food

Sean Powers (00:29:14):
Security is these are these pods then loaded up on, on dry dock and then completely sealed and, and submerged. Yeah. And okay. And these are, I mean, so I, I manage servers in multiple data centers here in the above. Yeah. The, you know, on dry ground. Yeah. <laugh> and every once in a while, you know, we have to send a guy out to yeah. Do something because something goes wrong. Yeah. Do you just, the customers just have to build in a way such that they know there's absolutely no way they're ever gonna touch these servers again. No, I mean, is that pretty much how things go? That would great.

Maxi Reynolds (00:29:53):
That would be great. That would save a lot of money, but no what we do is so, so you're right. We, we network them on land. We then close these pods up and then we, we put the fluid in. So they, they become sort of a immersion cooled, but without any, any need for pumps. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's

Sean Powers (00:30:11):
Sorts not an issue then if it's okay,

Maxi Reynolds (00:30:12):
It's not exactly they're compensated from, from the inside. And so we push them down and if they're in a port or in very shallow water, it takes about 30 minutes to get them to their like living place, to their point of location and operation. And if they're further offshore, it can take a couple of hours, but we lock them in. Then we have periodic maintenance times or times where cuz you know, most clients will say, okay, we are going to switch these servers out in 18 months. And so we pencil that in and we know that we're gonna have to go back out there in 18 months. Now, if there's a failure, we have redundancy. So if it's one server we're not very concerned, that's pretty normal. If we have a rack we might fill in place. If it's more than that, then we'll go out with our boat, our vessel and we'll pull up take out the fluid and then fix it. So it kind of depends. It depends on the client and B it depends on the problem. But what we have found is that we are about one eight, the maintenance needs for compared to a traditional data center because fluid is, is way less corrosive than oxygen or, or most gases. And so we kind of don't face some of the same contaminants, the same corrosion, and then there's no humans in there and humans are a huge problem in data centers from walking down the aisles to nudging wires, to just performing well in general

Sean Powers (00:31:48):
Humans

Maxi Reynolds (00:31:49):
In

Sean Powers (00:31:49):
General.

Maxi Reynolds (00:31:50):
Yeah. Just in general. I agree. I, I agree, but so, so, you know, our maintenance is sort of pushed down, but at the same time, people are a little bit nervous quite often to have their servers under war. And one of the ways that we've combated this and it sort of speaks to the, what we talked about earlier with human vulnerability, if you can find a way to appease that, even if it's, even if it's kind of inconsequential, it doesn't matter to the human brain, the human psyche's like perfect. So people are like, but we want, we want to see our servers. And we said, well, what if we put cameras in the pods? They were like, great. I okay. I'm like, I'm fine. I'm not gonna point out anything, but alright. So yeah.

Sean Powers (00:32:37):
That's okay. So by strange happenstance, I actually used to manage several thousand servers that were cooled in liquid. Like they were submerged and it was a, it was like a, a mineral oil kind of thing that they circulated. We actually, again, this is above ground to be clear, I, I don't live in one of your pods, but we still had to circulate that mineral oil through the system and pipe it out to a cooling tower. Yeah, because you know, I mean, it, it's great at dissipating the heat, but it's still, you know, there's still heat. I'm, I'm curious. And maybe you can't talk too much of, you know, maybe it's proprietary information, but how do you manage the, the cooling, obviously you have the ocean all around you. Is there a yeah. Is there a heat transfer that takes place through the pod and the, the internal oil. And do you have to circulate the, I assume it's some kind of like mineral, whatever the fluid is inside. Do you have to circulate that to maintain the heat?

Maxi Reynolds (00:33:36):
No. So, so essentially what happens is when the servers heat up, there's this sort of NA natural physical process that then takes place, which is the molecules heat up. And they start to drift upwards and outwards and it creates this turbulent flow within and that flow results in a heat transfer between the inner wall. Well, the inside of the pod and the outside of the pod in the water so much like a pipeline every pipeline has this. Also there is the heat of the oil, there's the inside of the pipe, there's the outside of the pipe. And then there's the water. So the O the heat of the oil goes to the inside of the pipe, which then takes it to the outside of the pipe, which then takes it to the water. The thing about the difference between pipelines and us is that the pipelines try and keep the heat in. So they, they actually close off their pipes. They like wrap them again. It's, it's called the PIP and cuz they need the heat. So that the oil doesn't like congeal, we're like we hate heat get out. So we have very thin walls and it's very efficient because, and not to get like super nerdy and technical, but heat has a no fluid has a heat carrying capacity about 3,500 times more than air. So we just don't face any problems. We don't have to drain. We just rely on this natural passive free cooling.

Sean Powers (00:35:17):
That's actually pretty. So just the convection from the heat, making the correct, the oil inside move around and you don't have to do any special active, like pumping to just through the walls of the pod is enough to keep it cool enough. That's that's kind of brilliant in its simplicity. So,

Maxi Reynolds (00:35:33):
So what's interesting about it is that there are two ways to put something into water. You can compensate from the inside, which we do, or you can make the walls very, very thick to withstand that pressure, but you can only really make the walls so thick. Before the space server coefficient is just like, no, so what Microsoft did this before they have a project it's called project NTIC and they built on the principles of a submarine. So they have their servers inside this chamber and they push in nitrogen and that keeps it cool. And nitrogen's like a really good choice because again, it's, it's less corrosive, then they'll turn alternative. But what they do is sort of where you started off is they take, they put seawater and they pump it or rammed that in their chamber. So this double Holland enclosure, they pump it around and the seawater then, you know, is essentially transferring to the other seawater and it takes away. And again, there as well, the thermal footprint is insignificant because the sea water is a stable temperature after the first layer. And it's just, it's extremely efficient.

Sean Powers (00:36:49):
That's what, so I was curious about if that's what you, if you had to do any sort of pumping like that, or if just the five merely touching the surrounding ocean was enough. So cool. All right. Doc had a question and I've been dominating. So go ahead, doc.

Doc Searls (00:37:03):
<Laugh> well, I'm trying to imagine what this I'm sort of picturing. This is you it's powered, right? So power is coming from land somewhere, right? So how far offshore, I mean, you you're running electricity out miles. Yeah. A thousand of miles. I mean, I, I, and that's one question the other is, yeah. Are you in the middle of like, like I'm, I'm thinking, okay. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> how do you splice fiber into this thing under the water? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know into question they do fix underwater things, but they generally bring em to the surface and then reconnect them. Right. And then bring it back down again. So how does that get? Yeah. So I'm trying to imagine the, the connectivity of this thing, both in terms of yeah. The power to it and the, and the cable and going in and out.

Maxi Reynolds (00:37:49):
So fixing something underwater is, is slightly more difficult than what we do because you're right. Sometimes that will have to be brought up, especially if it's a cable. But what we do is, is make use of already established infrastructure. So an oil rig is already connected to power. We already have power going out to these places. So we, we splice those cables quite often, or we co-locate with them. And we also try to co-locate with renewable powers, which is much easier actually in the UK than it is here just now. And we also have like partners in roll Royce who are putting out these small, they're not that small, but small modular reactors, like the size of a soccer field. And so we, we will be powered that way. But as of right now, what we do is just make use of that existing infrastructure.

Maxi Reynolds (00:38:43):
If we have to extend it, we will. And then what we do is as we, so the everything's in the pod, the oils in the pod, the, the fluids in the pod, the servers are in the pod. It's been networked on land. It's disconnected for now, it's on the back of a vessel or it's, it's about to be lured into the seat. We push it down, we put it onto the CED and then, you know, people don't use 'em anymore. Cause we typically use an EarPods, but you know, the jacks on the end of your headphones, if you ever use those. Yeah. they look like those. They're just huge. They're just a, you know, thousand times bigger. We take those with the ROV that we started off talking about that has those RMS. We just take that and we plug it into the existing space that we have into our pod.

Maxi Reynolds (00:39:32):
And just like, that's now connected to parents. It's, it's, you're essentially just plugging it in the way that you would in your home. And then we do the same for the cables. So what's interesting about subsea cables. Again, the backbone of the internet is that they have these they're called branching units be use. So there are these essentially spaces within the cable where they can be extended because sometimes humans can be forward thinking. So we build this end to say, okay, we will need to more capacity on this line, or we will need to essentially push this cable to a different landing point on earth soon, but not right now. So we'll build a, like a place for that. And so what we do is say, Hey, instead of pushing this cable to a, you know, a second point on land, give us that space and connect us from there. And again, it's, it's very much the same process. That's like a big sort of Jack and we plug it into our unit and like that we're connected to fiber and, and pattern.

Doc Searls (00:40:42):
So I find myself wondering to what extent the future of your enterprise is tied in or tracks along with the growth of, of the Marine world in general. Yeah. As a matter of importance to us, I there's a great site online. I just put it in our little back channel called Marine traffic.com and it shows, I mean like most of the world is water. Okay. And the amount of action going on out there is absolutely mindboggling, it's, it's huge and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. The more the world turns into I mean into one big place, I mean, an interesting thing about the internet and, and this is, this comes from my friend, Craig Burton, who died last week and his funeral is right now as a matter of fact, and I'm not there, but but he, he compared the world to a, a giant hollow sphere where we're all zero distance from each other.

Doc Searls (00:41:40):
And that's what, that's how it looks right now. I mean, you're in Los Angeles, I'm in Indiana. <Laugh> aunt, our, our production is in Northern California. Deshaun's in Michigan, but we could be anywhere in the world. We're all zero distance apart right now, functionally, functionally zero distance functionally, but the world's, but the world still works on this infrastructure and infrastructure itself. I think if people don't see it, it's not that well understood. And you know, I mean, our image of a data center is, is halls and halls and holes of blinking lights on walls. And yeah, and you're busy rethinking how this works. And it just strikes me that more and more of the world's future is going to be Marine, whether we, you know, like it or not, and you're sort of at the forefront for that. So I'm wondering where, how do you see progress going forward for you with this thing? How does, how does yeah, how does your sub thing grow?

Maxi Reynolds (00:42:36):
I'll sort of start out by saying what I think is true for every vendor. You tend to think that everybody must be thinking this and that you're too late and often you're years too, you know, too soon. And we have filmed that I've founded that people are not innovation ready and it's sort of the old, well, we've always done it this way, so we'll continue to do it this way. And I'm sort of happy to fight against that for as long as it takes. And I think 70% of the world is water and we have land in every single sort of we there's a really good book. I really, really enjoyed. I read it recently at, by VAs labs, mill, it's called how the world really works. And in that he talks about land charges. He talks about our reliance on fossil fuels and renewables.

Maxi Reynolds (00:43:31):
If they're scalable, if they're not what can work and what can't. And one of the things that I took away from it is nothing. You know, as humans, we tend to sit in one extreme camp. Most of the time you're either all for it or not for it, but there's actually this sort of middle ground. So I don't think that all data centers will be undersea in 10 years. I would love that, but that's not gonna happen. And I truly believe that going underwater is a, is a net benefit to society because we reduce carbon emissions by 40% and, you know, short of taking a huge like lifestyle step back in the Western world, we are probably not going to reach the, the agreements that we've tr that we've set out the Paris CLIMA hoard agreement. It's really unrealistic. But here we are saying for the largest consuming asset class on earth, we can reduce the carbon that you're putting out by 40%.

Maxi Reynolds (00:44:36):
And by co-locating with like renewables and then we're available buy more. And people are like, no, because it's the ocean. And it's scary not understanding that the ocean is like the backbone of how society's being built. There's been no other thing that has PR you know, light and oil are two of the things that have really helped us as humans be what we've become. And algorithms now are sort of that third evolutionary force. And they say the algorithms say that, you know, it is actually very beneficial to put data centers underwater in between, you know, middle of the cables or towards the landing stations on either side. And so as that catches on and is more and more cables are deployed, I think that our future will, will continue to, to grow and, and the trend will go upwards, but it is a, it's a bit of a slog just now.

Sean Powers (00:45:44):
So, and I want to actually talk about that along with, because there's issues like with reduced latency and stuff that I, I kind of wanna nerd out a little bit, but I know doc has an add to read. So in just a minute, let's talk more about latency and nerdy stuff.

Maxi Reynolds (00:45:58):
Yes. Perfect. <Laugh>

Doc Searls (00:46:01):
Great. Tease there. Deshaun. Okay. So this episode of frost, <laugh>, I'll take it again. This episode of Flos weekly is brought to you by bit warden. Bit warden is the only open source cross platform password manager that could be used at home at work or on the go and is trusted by millions with bit warden. You can securely store credentials across personal and business worlds. Every bit warden account begins with the creation of a personal vault bit. Warden has big news after launching the username generator last month, they're integrating with three popular email forwarding services that also happen to be open source, simple login, and an Addie and Firefox relay. Now adding another layer of security and privacy is easier than ever when using bit word into generate a new username. The option to create an email alias is presented with a sub selection for choosing your preferred service.

Doc Searls (00:46:59):
Just enter the API key for your individual account, with the chosen service select the desired options. And once generated a new alias is instantly registered to your using unique usernames, email addresses and passwords for every account is a powerful method for increasing internet security and privacy and ads protection to logins in the face of data breaches and leaks. This feature will be available on, on the web vault desktop app and browser extensions with mobile plan for a future release coming soon bit warden is a must need for your business. It's fully customizable and adapts to your business needs. Use bit warden, send a fully encrypted method to transmit sensitive information, whether text or files generate unique and secure passwords for every site with enterprise grade security, that's GDPR, CCPA, HIPAA, and SOC to compliant their end to end encrypted vault helps mitigate phishing attacks. Their team's organization option is $3 a month per user share private data securely with coworkers across departments or the entire company enterprises can use bit warden's enterprise organization plan for just $5 a month per user individuals can use their basic free account forever for an unlimited number of passwords or upgrade any time to their premium account for less than $1 a month.

Doc Searls (00:48:32):
Their family organization option gives up to six users premium features for only $3 and 33 cents a month at TWI where big fans of password managers bit warden is the only open source cross platform password manager that can be used at home on the go or at work, and is trusted by millions of individuals, teams and organizations worldwide gets started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or gets started for free across all devices as an individual user@bitchwarden.com slash twit that's bitch warden.com/twi. So Sean, you were saying <laugh> or

Sean Powers (00:49:16):
Yeah, so during the ad, I actually thought too that it's interesting with the whole in oil or whatever, whatever the fluid is. There are some things that don't work, like obviously spinning a spinning media storage doesn't work. And even if it was self enclosed, the pressure would basically crush the hard drives, which would be cool to see, but just the one time <laugh> <laugh>. So is I'm sure that there's a lot of planning that goes in, like also obviously cooling all that's stripped out. I mean, I remember stripping out cooling fans, but pressure was not anything I ever had to consider when we were using yeah. Submerged servers, but that was just a side thought I had during the ad. The other thing is so the idea of the, the servers under sea, it seems it seems ridiculous at first glance, right when I saw so okay.

Sean Powers (00:50:02):
Servers underwater, but honestly it makes a ton of sense for a lot of practical reasons, the, the carbon stuff, which you mentioned before the outbreak. Yeah. The idea that you know, it can be powered by other things in the ocean is also a place where, you know, renewables are, are going to be more and more created. So, but all that aside the latency, I mean, you are hooked into the backbone of the internet as it comes to nearshore. And so that must be a very significant selling point. And I, I know I tend to ask like 27 questions then give you the mic. But the other aspect of this is I, I can see that being an incredible boon for somebody who, who was buying, you know, the, the infrastructure space to put their servers, but it I'm curious how this expands and doc was alluding to, you know, where do you go from here? How, how does this become something that an end user might someday use? And like, do you, I'm not asking for your, your customer roles, but I mean, you know, maybe free advertisement for some, but are there companies who are considering these, I mean, edge of the backbone type places to then resell cloud services? I mean, in whatever form that might be, it just seems like not just regional data centers, but I mean, boom you're, I mean, the latency must be nothing

Maxi Reynolds (00:51:32):
27 questions as like, like that. Yeah. That's a thousand. Okay. I'm gonna start out. I'm gonna, I am gonna get you back. So I'm gonna start out with like the nerdiest sort of thing that I, that I can see, which is, you know, if you have a company and you're not solving a problem, do you have a company? No, probably not. You shouldn't do it. And so we are not just pushing these underwater cuz it's cool, cuz it is cool, but like that's not enough. It's sort of the utility Delta compared to the current status, like the current state of the art times, the number of people that you help. That's sort of, that's the calculation on which to base a company and that's the calculation in which I baseline. And so latency is, is one of those like helping things, you don't see it, you don't notice if, if the data that you're trying to get served to you from Google server someplace is a millisecond later.

Maxi Reynolds (00:52:33):
You probably won't notice that, but the financial markets do the, the like telemedicine markets they do. So latency actually does become important. And there's a few ways to slice that, I suppose. So the first that 55% of the world currently lives. Coastally so more than half. And what we're seeing in traditional data centers is that they're moving further and further away from, from those metropolitan areas and into rural areas. And that introduces latency, the reason they are doing that is because it's cheaper. There are tax cuts, the power's typically cheaper, but it becomes a little bit wash for the environment in terms of the cooling that you need, because typically that's, those are hot places or places where the amount of money that you have to put into it to get power there, to get telecoms. There is quite a lot it's substantial.

Maxi Reynolds (00:53:32):
We don't face those problems. So by placing these data centers, just for the end user off, just off the coast, we can reduce that latency by up to about 98%. And that's, you know, significant. And then on top of that, we face a different problem in the cable industry, light travels at the speed of light, I think it's like 118, 9,000 miles per second. Something like that, the light that, that goes within these fiber optic cables that, you know, it's, it's essentially on, off for zero and one, they don't travel at the speed light. They can't quite do that. If someone in the world can, can overcome that and speed to that up then will have, you know, even lower levels of latency. But until that happens just placing them on the coast where most of the people live reduces that latency. I got you back there. I like, I

Sean Powers (00:54:29):
That's pretty good. No, no. That

Maxi Reynolds (00:54:31):
Was hundred things. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. So, but did I enter everything? Yeah.

Sean Powers (00:54:37):
You answered probably like 13 of the sub <laugh>. The, the other thing I'm curious about though is like where we go from here. And if, if there are companies who are going to take advantage of this, because at the end of the day, I, I wanna play with a server that's, you know, on the bottom of the ocean <laugh> and I am not going to be able to afford to, you know, lease out one of your pods. And so are there companies that are you know, filling them up with their server infrastructure and allowing people to take advantage of that? Because again, I see that as a huge thing,

Maxi Reynolds (00:55:08):
They are, we're working with like multiple types of provider. And so you will do that. You will be able to do that one day. You personally sort of having your server as, as a person off, there is a ways off because the industry is not looking at it like that snow, but just, you know, X company, having their data on these servers is a thing of now. So depending on who you're sort of where you're trying to get your information, you might already have data from, from one of our pods. <Laugh> very cool.

Sean Powers (00:55:42):
But yes, very cool. So are you just gonna load one of your own pods up with servers and like sell for me virtual private servers to, you know, the, the whole world, just to, just to garner excitement over the possibilities. I don't know. That's, you know, this is why I don't own a business <laugh>

Maxi Reynolds (00:55:59):
<Laugh> no, not yet. I think the, the, the only thing that I would do that I'm not doing just now is, is like more philanthropic sort of things. Like I would give to be and cat. I like what they do, but it's sort of difficult cause you have to, I don't want to do what I think is personally like morally great because there's always the other side. Who's like, here's the flaws and the company doesn't have feelings of such, so I can't take sides, but yeah, I would like to, so I've talked us out of time. Haven't I we're we're we're not time or are we not,

Sean Powers (00:56:38):
But doc is very quiet. I think you're muted doc

Maxi Reynolds (00:56:42):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Sean Powers (00:56:43):
Doc, are you muted? Because I'm sure what you were saying was amazing.

Maxi Reynolds (00:56:49):
It

Doc Searls (00:56:49):
Looked great and I'm on camera. It looked great in my mouth. It did. And not actually saying anything which is nothing new. <Laugh> so we actually are, we are less out of time that we usually say when we're, and we're close to being out of time. It's the first time a guest has said it before we have <laugh> what I could go to though, is that, and this is not a bad way to, to, to wind it down. Is there anything we haven't asked yet that we should have asked that's on your, on your list and is wasn't on Sean's 27 things that

Sean Powers (00:57:20):
Please don't want Sean asking me anything else

Doc Searls (00:57:22):
We didn't count.

Maxi Reynolds (00:57:25):
No, I mean, I think we covered it all. I, I tried not to like narrowed out too much, but

Sean Powers (00:57:31):
Ah, that's not possible. No,

Doc Searls (00:57:32):
We're all about nerding out here.

Maxi Reynolds (00:57:34):
Okay,

Doc Searls (00:57:34):
Good. This is, this is nerd land we're in right now

Maxi Reynolds (00:57:40):
To give me a passport.

Doc Searls (00:57:42):
Yeah. Yeah. There's a <laugh>.

Sean Powers (00:57:46):
Yeah. I can tell we're winding down because my air conditioner has been off now long enough that my chief,

Doc Searls (00:57:50):
Oh, there it is. You caught me,

Maxi Reynolds (00:57:52):
Right?

Doc Searls (00:57:53):
Yeah. Here's our back channel. See what you get to see what our IRC looks like.

Sean Powers (00:57:58):
How many S are on your payroll? That's a cool

Doc Searls (00:58:00):
Question, Octa. Yeah, it is its they often give us good titles for, for shows as well.

Sean Powers (00:58:08):
I just, I just wanna say octopus and octopi are both proper plurals. Just wanna say wasn't being foolish there are you sure octopus is, is also a proper plural. Oh yeah.

Doc Searls (00:58:20):
Actually a couple days ago. Well this

Maxi Reynolds (00:58:22):
Up.

Doc Searls (00:58:23):
Yeah, a couple lets go while I me or may not have been picking up COVID from friends who were there at this thing we were talking about that great octopus movie, my octopus teacher while we were in fact eating octopus. So it's <laugh> there's there's the irony there, you know, we we're carnivore or PEs, CVOs, whatever its are

Maxi Reynolds (00:58:43):
PE Pesco

Doc Searls (00:58:44):
Yeah. I'm I'm I'm looking, I something I'm I'm wondering is, I mean, when you pull these things up from the, from down there, cuz obviously retrieve them from time to time. Yeah. What weird things do you find on them? <Laugh> I'm just wondering octopus,

Maxi Reynolds (00:58:58):
Coral

Doc Searls (00:58:59):
Performed around them or what?

Maxi Reynolds (00:59:01):
Yeah. So, so you know, I don't wanna be like a, like what's the word a Pollyanna maybe and say that, oh it's it's it's brilliant. And all the fish love it. I'm not sure they do. Or if, I don't know if they do or if they don't, I just, you know, they're not harmful, but some fish acts is kind of like this, like artificial reef, almost like things come and they sit on us and they, you know, they're just there and you can't peel them off <laugh> so we just, just try and get them back in. But, but yeah, things come and hide beside our pods from, from predators. And we have cameras on the outside also again for like that human bias, but we get to see a lot. And when we go down with the subs with the ROVs, we also get to see like what's there what's lurking, is there gonna be a fish fight? But everything sticks to us. <Laugh> everything.

Doc Searls (00:59:54):
So, wow. So now we actually are at, at at the end of the almost end. So let me ask the two final questions. One is what's your favorite text editor in scripting language?

Maxi Reynolds (01:00:09):
Oh God

Doc Searls (01:00:10):
You ask

Maxi Reynolds (01:00:10):
Everybody. My F <laugh> editor is probably why almost been years and language is I don't wanna talk about why, but it's because it's easy is, is Python

Doc Searls (01:00:25):
That are probably our two most popular answers anyway. Yeah.

Sean Powers (01:00:29):
Our two most popular answers see you fit right into the nerdy, huh?

Doc Searls (01:00:33):
Right in with the, we have to, we close my nerding out. So this is awesome. This has been a very fun show. And as always, when they're extremely fun has gone way too fast. Pretty quickly we'll have to have you back. We tell almost everybody that

Maxi Reynolds (01:00:49):
<Laugh>,

Doc Searls (01:00:50):
I'm hoping guests. We didn't ask that I not feeling offended. That's awesome. But anyway, this is, this has been terrific. So thanks. Thanks again. We wish you extreme luck and buoyancy or whatever could be their way if

Maxi Reynolds (01:01:04):
I'm correct. Non buoyancy <laugh>

Sean Powers (01:01:06):
Yes. If I'm correct octopus, you want a

Doc Searls (01:01:09):
Specific

Sean Powers (01:01:09):
Be part of the

Doc Searls (01:01:09):
Title show high specific gravities high specific gravities <laugh>

Maxi Reynolds (01:01:13):
They sh yes, they should be part of the title of the show. I agree. And also, no, thank you for having me. It, it did go really fast and I hope it was, it was interesting for, for most people. And, and thank

Sean Powers (01:01:27):
You. I mean, it was for me, everybody else. Okay,

Maxi Reynolds (01:01:29):
Good. That's there are other people

Doc Searls (01:01:32):
That Sean's our proxy. He's our proxy. He, if he gets it, it's all. It's all good. So, thanks again.

Maxi Reynolds (01:01:39):
Thank you so much. Thank you.

Doc Searls (01:01:42):
So Sean dude, that was awesome.

Sean Powers (01:01:45):
It was, and you know, it's funny, we talked in the pre show. We wanted to make sure to talk about the open source intelligence part, because I mean that, it's kind of the foundation of so many aspects of it, but I really wanted to talk about undersea data centers so bad, and then it

Doc Searls (01:01:59):
Just

Sean Powers (01:01:59):
Got cooler and cooler. I mean, filled with oil. And I had actually worked with servers that were submerged before. Yeah. It was just super cool.

Doc Searls (01:02:09):
I, I go back far enough. So I just remember am station transmitters that were water cooled that's oh yeah. Actually last week I visited the biggest one in the us. It was a half million Watts in the thirties and they had a giant and that's,

Sean Powers (01:02:23):
Those are scary. Two of those am towers. I mean, they'll like, they'll play you dead. Yeah. Did really quick.

Doc Searls (01:02:28):
Yeah. The, well, this, this is a, a diamond shaped one w LW in Cincinnati, but there, and, and it was like for like several years in the thirties, it was 500,000 Watts. The maximum for all the rest of them is 50,000. So one tent that power and you know, and it was, it was massive, massive signal. Anyway, the an interesting thing to me about open source is that it started as a military term and it started as, you know, open source intelligence was came along before open source became a geek thing in 1998, bunch of geeks decided they were gonna adopt that term in 1998. It had already been tried by the military and was well understood for a long time before that. But the geeks made a take off. So <laugh> a little bit of history there. So what's your, what's your plug man really

Sean Powers (01:03:19):
Too. Yeah, I know we're running outta time. Yeah, no. So right now I'm just starting on my YouTube channel a Linux plus series, like the full, so Linux plus just did a revision on their exam. So if you wanna get Linux plus certified if you go yeah. To my YouTube channel and you can check it out, one of the playlists is oh, maybe I didn't put it on my page there, but it's just sn.co/linux+all spelled out. And we just started, I think there's like three videos in the series that first aren't there with me in the blue shirt, and we're gonna go through the entire list of objectives and learn Linux together. And it just started. So I'm looking forward to it.

Doc Searls (01:03:58):
Fantastic. That's great. Sean is great people. He did. Oh, he does good videos. He does all good stuff. And so I'll plug it. I'll plug you too. And I would appreciate that this is where I plug who's coming on next week, but we are moving the schedule around, so it will be somebody great. It's just that somebody we know at this moment, so I will see you in a week and so take care. See you soon.

Speaker 6 (01:04:22):
Hey, what's going on everybody. I am aunt Pruitt and I am the host of hands on photography here on TWI TV. I know you got yourself, a fancy smartphone. You got yourself, a fancy camera, but your pictures are still lacking. Can't quite figure out what the heck shutter speed means. Watch my show. I got you covered. Wanna know more about just the I ISO and exposure triangle in general. Yeah, I got you covered. Or if you got all of that down, you want to get into lighting, you know, making things look better by changing the lights around you. I got you covered on that too. So check us out each and every Thursday here in the network, go to twi.tv/hop and subscribe today.