FLOSS Weekly 720 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Doc Searls (00:00:00):
This is FLOSS Weekly. I'm Doc Searls. This week, Simon Phipps and I talk with Arun Gupta of Intel about how Intel is fostering open source culture involved in many ecosystems like the C N C F, for example, and other two, three, and four letter acronyms. The Linux Foundation is a two letter acronym. There are lots of these, and he's an athlete and an interesting guy. The whole thing is really cool. That's coming up. Next

Announcer (00:00:31):
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Doc Searls (00:00:38):
This is FLOSS Weekly episode 720, recorded Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023, fostering an open source culture. This episode of FLOSS Weekly is brought to you by Bit Warden, yet the password manager that offers a robust and cost effective solution that can drastically increase your chances of staying safe online. Get started with a free trial of a teams or enterprise plan, or get started for free across all devices as an individual user at bit And by Collide, collide is a device trust solution that ensures that if a device isn't secure, it can't access your apps, it's zero trust For Okta, visit and book a demo today. Hello again, everybody. I am Doc Searls, and good morning, good evening, good whenever it is, or whatever it is, whenever, whatever you are. This is plus weekly, and I'm joined this week by Simon Phipps himself, Mr. Webb Mink. Hello,

Simon Phipps (00:01:50):
Doc. I, I'm sitting here in my in my upstairs office in Southampton in the uk and I see that you, you are in your punishment dungeon in, in somewhere in the middle

Doc Searls (00:02:01):
Of the Simon still. I have been banished downstairs. So this is this is my, my office also the furnace room as it as it was in the last place I lived here. But it's quite nice. It's, it's roomy since we put rugs in it's less roomy sounding on shows like this. So we're, so we're good. So, so are our, our guest today, Aaron Gupta is is an old colleague of yours. Am I right about that?

Simon Phipps (00:02:28):
From the, from the Dark Ages Arun worked in the Java team when I was running the open source office at some Microsystems back before most of our audience were born. I expect

Doc Searls (00:02:40):

Simon Phipps (00:02:41):
So, well, you know, there, there will be a few people I can see in the irc, maybe a little older than that. So yes he, he, he worked on the Java Evangelism team back in the two thousands before moving on to bigger and better things at Amazon. And then after that onto Intel where he is now. So we have known, we've known each other and known of each other for many, many years.

Doc Searls (00:03:06):
<Laugh>. That's great. I, so with that as a a, a segue, I'm gonna get into the intro. Arun Gupta is Vice President and GM of Open Ecosystems at Intel. He's been an open source strategist, advocate and practitioner for nearly two decades, and is currently an elected chair of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the c nnc f governing board something I'm interested in where he works with CNCF leadership and member companies to grow the cloud native ecosystem. He's also delivered technical toxin over 45 countries, authored multiple books, holds two patents, and is a docker captain, Java champion, and Java user group leader. So, welcome Arun to the show.

Arun Gupta (00:03:48):
Thank you. I'm super excited and happy to be here.

Doc Searls (00:03:51):
Thank you. So, so where in the world are you, of those 45 plus countries? Youth

Arun Gupta (00:03:56):
<Laugh>. Thank you. Yeah. my home for the last about quarter century is San Francisco Bay Area. So one of you is in basement, one of you is in upstairs. I'm smack on the ground level, and between two of you different part of the world,

Doc Searls (00:04:12):
<Laugh>. That's fantastic. I I live there for a long time myself, so I I'm not even sure, sure, sure. Where to start. So, so why don't you just give us a sort of the overview on what Intel's doing with open source. I mean you know, that's, that's a big thing for them now. Catherine Druckman, one of our co-hosts now works there, and so we're getting more and more connected, it seems, with Intel.

Arun Gupta (00:04:39):
Yeah, well, I mean I don't think, well, first of all, let me qualify the statement. I don't think it's a big thing for Intel now. It has always been. And honestly, when I chatted with Greg Lader last year, and we started talking about, like, as an outsider, I've always been in the open source industry for about two decades, you know, either on the practicing side, even on the evangelism side or the managing engineering side. But I have been to realize how much Intel has been influencing opensource over the two decades. And when I started talking to Greg, and then I realized the opportunity of what Intel brings to opensource just, just blew my mind. I mean, just to give you an idea, we have 19,000 plus software engineers at Intel. People think of us as a silicon company. No, we have almost 20,000 software engineers here.

 We have been the founding members of Linux Foundation over 20 years ago. We are not just that, but we are part of 700 plus open source foundations and standard bodies and in leadership positions, elected and paid membership in all possible places. We contribute heavily to community owned projects. I mean, if you think about CSPs Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, all of these CSPs, majority of their fleet is Intel platform. So what isn't it for Intel to be engaged in open source? The primary reason really is we wanna make sure that the open source projects, because customers don't download open source projects, they download the distribution of an open source project so that they can buy support, and they can have that comfort feeling that, okay, I'm using open source project. So Intel contributes to open source projects, open JK ES Linux, kernel, L L V M G, ccc, <inaudible>, TensorFlow, I mean, I can, the list goes on and on.

We contribute to these projects in a upstream manner to ensure that these projects are fully optimized for internal platform across the board. And now, whether you are running in a C S P environment, whether you are running in a private cloud environment, where is a big part of it, like, you know, Chrome and all of these projects, I mean, imagine how much activity in your laptop is done using a browser, and that's where Intel is heavily involved into optimizing the client flow of it. Similarly, on the networking side of it, you know, all the work that is happening on the networking side, on the, we ran side or on the edge side. So Edge client compute, you name it, you know, across all of these domains, Intel is heavily contributing to the open source projects. We are one of the top 10 contributors to Kubernetes cloud net ecosystem. We are one of the top contributors to open J D K. This is the most popular Java programming language. So that's sort of the impact that Intel brings. We have been the top corporate contributor to Linux Kernel for over 15 years in a row. And the reason is because this is what customers look at us, that, hey, what, what value does Intel provide? This is the value that Intel provides.

Simon Phipps (00:08:04):
So Arun Intel's been involved in, in these sorts of open source activities for a long time. I, I know a lot of people who used to work for Intel and on open source, a lot of them are lawyers. How has the open source landscape changed for Intel? I noticed that you, you've joined relatively recently on the global scale of things, and I, I suspect the strategy has changed. So in what way has that changed and how has that affected the way that you approach staffing for open source of Intel?

Arun Gupta (00:08:40):
Yeah, so I mean, if you think about it, you know, a few years ago Intel used to have this thing called as OTC or Open Source Technology Center. Everything was kind of centralized in that one org, you know, all the most of the open source work was happening out of that org. Now, over the years, that strategy has definitely changed, where the engineering is kind of split and happening all across the bu. There is a sagi, or as we call a software and Advanced Technologies group which is led by cto, our CTO O Greg Lavender. So he leads that, that's where a lot of the software work happens. Then there is networking bu which is led by satin kati. So a lot of the networking, all of the networking work happens over there. Then there is a client compute group, then there is a data center group.

The whole element of having that distributed strategy is that open source cannot have boundary conditions. Open source can happen anywhere and everywhere, and let it thrive and let it be successful in wherever is happening in the bu. My role and as you're right, you know, I joined Intel last year, April, so just about getting close to a year now. But my role, the role of my team as a VP and GM of Open Ecosystem is to really make sure that we are enabling all these teams to be successful. So as part of my team, for example I have the opo office, you know, as part of osbo, we do all the usual OPO things, make sure all inbound and outbound open source processes are in place, streamlined compliance, et cetera. That happens. I have a team that, that is dedicated towards community and evangelism side of it.

So things like con things like open source summit, those events are sponsored and executed out of my team where we really tap into the engineering teams, like the different views that I talked about. We tap into their engineering knowledge and engineering powers. How do we help shine that work? My team is surely executing the event, but how do we bring their work out from the open source reality? And when I start highlighting those demos if con is happening or open source summit is happening, or any other talk is happening, other event is happening, how do we make sure we bring the right subject matter expert, we work with them to curate the talks, and then we help them with the submission at the event. So a lot of it is about enabling. I have a part of the team that is also driving the broader open source strategy.

So where we work with different views, like client, what is your open source strategy? Then data center, what is your open source strategy? So kind of work across different teams, kind of help them create that open strategy, and then make sure this is aligned with sort of the corporate strategy that my team kind of defines. Again, a lot of it is sort of very much in the spirit of open source ethos, where it's not like, oh, either you are aligned to this or not aligned to this. It's a very collaborative, very cross-functional way, which is what makes actually Intel a very exciting place and a huge opportunity, honestly, which is what I'm really excited about to be here at Intel Bar.

Simon Phipps (00:11:55):
Right. So now I, I'm quite interested by the, the, the bigger picture of semiconductor companies in open source. I, I see some of Intel's peers in the semiconductor industry taking a very different strategy towards open source. For example, one very large US semiconductor manufacturer focuses greatly on monetizing patent royalties and is somewhat opposed to open source Because of that how does, how do you at Intel cope with the tension between the need to monetize patent royalties on the standards you implement and the need to engage fully in communities?

Arun Gupta (00:12:35):
Yeah, no, I think that's a really delicate question actually. So the way we look at this is, you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, pat talks about how, you know, our strategy hasn't changed. Like since Pat came on board over two years ago, he made it very clear our strategy is about DM 2.0 our Integr device manufacturing 2.0 earlier, we used to create our design and our manufacture, our designs with DM 2.0. We're saying we're gonna keep doing that, but we will also allow others to bring their design in and then we can manufacture it. So you can think about it, how we are really trying to create a foundry model at Intel, and that's exactly where lies in your question that we can't really have that whole concept of, you know, oh, it is IP and we should hold it back.

 But then again, there is a strong desire to monetize as well. So that's always a delicate balance as opposed to kind of leaning one on either side of the pendulum heavily. We always think of this as a very deliberate discussion that what is the opportunity cost here? What is the monetization element here? You know, is it right in the two? I mean, at Intel is very important that we are doing the right thing, you know, that we are taking a high road here, you know, if this is the right thing to do for the open source, we go that route, we make it happen, and then we make it successful over there. So that's always a balance that we have to try as opposed to an accidental decision. It's more of a deliberate decision within our framework.

Simon Phipps (00:14:11):
Right. So C N C F had a great deal of focus on 5G and the, the move by the mobile industry to invade the networking industry as it were. Is your focus on open source giving you an advantage in that world? Or is it placing you at a disadvantage compared with all of the other patent heavy 5G vendors who are working in that space?

Arun Gupta (00:14:42):
I don't think it puts us in any disadvantage actually at all. You know, I mean, we really believe that open source makes it a leveled playground. As a matter of fact, if you think about it, the moment you get into those walled gardens, then the innovation, the fund is fully defined and controlled by that particular vendor. And in that sense, Intel heavily believes in creating that level, playing ground for across the board where we wanna make sure that hey, we invest strategically in open ecosystem to create that level playing ground and have that horizontal market where truly the co competition is the one that succeeds, as opposed to saying, oh, here is, you know, driven by one particular vendor, and now they can define how it needs to look like. We really wanna truly break that wall garden model and provide that consistent framework where everybody is at free to compete truly based on meritocracy as opposed to, because it's defined or controlled by one vendor.

Doc Searls (00:15:47):
So I wanna get into the the CNCF since we're on the CNCF topic landscape. But first I have to let people know that this episode of FLOSS Weekly is brought to you by Bit Warden. Bit Warden is the only open source cross platform password manager that could be used at home, at work, or on the go, and is trusted by millions, even our very own Steve Gibson is switched over. With Bid Warden, you can securely store credentials across personal and business worlds. All of your data in your Bid Warden Vault is end-to-end encrypted, and not just your passwords. That's including U URL's for all websites you have accounts for Bid Warden doesn't track your data in the mobile apps, only crash reporting, and even that is removed in the f droid installation. Bit Warden is open source and invites anyone to review library implementations at any time on GitHub.

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That's spit So Arun we were I was at the the CNCF conference in San Jose a few years ago. I think the first one that they had, and I was surprised to find it was at that time anyway, mostly a 5G conference. And two things that stood out for me, there was first that distributed cloud was the thing I had not even considered before that. And so that's a huge thing. And, and you know, we already have these large clouds that are close to people that, that are run by Netflix and ones like that, but these are, these are run by the phone companies or released by, I don't really know how they work except they want little latency to local clouds, and that was part of the idea. Simon touched on that a little bit. I think the other thing was the CNCF landscape and and the CNCF landscape allows you to look at everybody who's involved in the C N C F and, and then click on different filters, like for example, to show on only the open source ones, which is the majority of them actually.

But it was a really entertaining and deep way to look at this, and very helpful to me as a reporter at the time. It was an editor for linnux Journal writing about this. It was really quite interesting, and it's still great to see like four or five years later that it's still a completely useful, completely useful thing.

Arun Gupta (00:20:13):
Oh yeah. Oh gosh. I can't even talk about how much c n CF has gained a foothold in every technology, every digital journey that we talk about to customers, you know, everybody and everybody, and I think a lot of customers have been doing sort of a digital modernization of their infrastructure, but what Docker, Kubernetes gave them is a common compute language. And by those projects really coming to cncf and then CNCF enabling, you know, bringing that non vendor, what other vendor Neutral agno, another vendor agnostic platform for everybody to talk in the same language. It truly brings that open source knowledge together where companies like, you know, Google, Microsoft, Intel, ibm, Amazon, all of these are collaborating together on making Kubernetes successful, and yet they have a strong monetization opportunity because Kubernetes, the project on GitHub is just one element of it, you know, how do you operationalize it?

How do you build a platform like Red Hat OpenShift, for example, by which you can say, oh, I'm writing a Java by application, I just wanna bring my Java application over there and operationalize this for me in the sense that when I do a get push, automatically create a Docker file, no, a docker image, a Kubernetes, you know, container edit up and running. So all of that, you know, this is exactly where the C N C F broader landscape ecosystem kind stands out. Well I remember San Diego, this was I guess 2019 right before pandemic. This was the last coupon that we had. We had 16,000 people over there, and now we are looking to go back to Amsterdam. Last year was Detroit, before that was Valencia, before that was la and next in a couple of months, months, we are looking to go back, go back to Amsterdam. We are looking at about 8,000 people in person that are gonna attend coupon. If you look in terms of diversity inclusion, the number of projects that are coming through C N C F, you know, that are that are branding themselves and, and it's not really cloud native washing. These projects are truly enabling how to be successful in the cloud native landscape. So I think that is continues to grow just immensely.

Doc Searls (00:22:36):
So, so I'm wondering if we look at the cloud native landscape on the left side in the left column, there's a set of filters, and one of them is for, as I mentioned earlier, is just for open source products projects. And I'm wondering first with that landscape and with those filters, have companies that would not have appeared pr previously among the open source survivors of that filter moved over to that. In other words, have you enlarged, has that been a recruiting tool to get people more involved in open source?

Arun Gupta (00:23:12):
I think there always comes a no no. I think there always comes a tipping point where, you know, companies who are sitting on the fringe and they realize that, Hey, should I be getting involved in open source or not? And what is the monetization opportunity for me? Because end of the day, you know, you can't just run a company truly only based on open source. You gotta have some sort of a monetization angle in order for that business to be sustainable. And I think in that sense, CNCF truly provided them the platform and the ecosystem is so large, so huge that everybody, you know, the pie is so big that everybody has an opportunity to actually truly build a open source business model given that projects like Kubernetes on, when you pick at cd, all of these projects are open source and there is a strong commercial opportunity. So I think if you pick a company that has only C N C N CF as they're monetization opportunity, it truly enabled them to like, yeah, I, I can actually build opensources credible business leveraging C n CF landscape, leveraging that ecosystem, speaking at the events, going to the Kubernetes community days tagging on to those Amazon e k s, Google, G K e, or Amazon a k s, because once you start tying in, then there are clear monetization opportunities and you can truly be successful in open source aspect as well.

Doc Searls (00:24:33):
So I don't know if this is a relevant experience or not, but it's an interesting one. Our apartment in New York, which I used to give this show from is now occupied my, my son and his girlfriend. And I noticed that on top of a pole across the street was a new device, a new thing that looked like a funnel at the top. And I thought, I wonder if that's 5g. I wonder if that's a new 5G thing. So I have an old phone, but he has a new one and his does 5g and we have T-Mobile there. And and he tried it out and he was getting 500 megabits down and like 300 up, and of course he went to, wow, that's cool, we can get rid of the cable. But where I went to it is, wow, what are, what could be done with cloud?

What could be done with many other things on the far side of that, because the cable system, I mean, we're, we get 500 down on cable, they're actually better than that. In New York, it's slowly 10 megabits up and but with 300 up, all kinds of other things are suddenly feeling possible. And I'm wondering if that's, if that's high on people's minds or is that on in your mind, or is it, is it part of it? How does that look in the plans of providers going forward? Not just Intel, but Intel's customers and Intel's partners further up the stack. Because I, it's, it's amazing to me that in 2023, we still think what we get from a cable company is what could what we're gonna get on the internet and was sort of forgotten the original purpose of the internet, which is to put everybody zero s apart at almost zero cost with infinite capacities, both upstream and down. More in a point to point way. So, so tell me more about that. I see you nodding, so I know you're thinking.

Arun Gupta (00:26:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think you are spot on. I think the important part to understand though is if we look at say seven, seven and a half billion population of the world, first of all, how much of them have internet fun? Second is even if they have internet, how much percentage of that population truly have that 500 megabyte download, 300 megabyte upload even within us, as a matter of fact, right? I mean, sun happens to be right smack in front of the device. Maybe that looks like a 5G device, so maybe they are getting it. I don't get that kind of a speed and I, I'm smacking the San Francisco Bay. I don't get that level of speed on my phone, for example. So I think the first part that I always think about is how diverse, how inclusive it is across the board.

If I'm building my application, maybe I'm building my applications specific to a customer segment which have that bandwidth, which is great because then you can do back and forth, back and forth discussion, whatever video framing, whatever that requires that high bandwidth application. I can do it, but I'm always thinking in terms of how would this be more diverse? How could this be more inclusive? What would my fallback action be like? Long back, we used to talk about that, oh, if you are putting an image in your webpage, you should have a alt graphic because what if your browser cannot display the image? Now what would the alt text look like? So I think that's the mechanism that is important for customers to understand. Sure, you can, it does open up a lot of opportunities in the kind of applications that you can make, but what is your alt text if the, that that bandwidth is not available?

What is your fallback plan, essentially if that bandwidth is not available? So I think that is an important element to think and understand. The other point that I would I wanna make is, I think I kinda said this earlier, that kind of bandwidth is not prevalent across the world in certain parts of the world. It is available, but if we say, I don't know, maybe 80, 85, 90% of the world does not have that kind of bandwidth. You know, forget about rural areas, you know, how, what kind of bandwidth they have, if at all, any. So I think that's the part that I always think about.

Simon Phipps (00:28:41):
You know, I remember thinking about that 20 years ago. And it's, it's kind of disappointing. We've made so little global progress on that subject. I remember back in the days with sun going down to a a tele Centro in Brazil and seeing how the only way people could get enough bandwidth to use the internet was to go to basically go to their local library and use it there. I, I wonder if there's anything we can do to accelerate that that global rollout of bandwidth availability. Do you think there are any, any new solutions on the horizon? Arun?

Arun Gupta (00:29:24):
I'm not deeply engaged in that part of the world, but I can definitely have somebody from Intel kind provide that point of view. I would say if you go back like, say two or three years ago that revolution kind of started to happen where, you know, we were talking about that, oh, 5G is inevitable, it's coming up soon, but then, you know, these macro headwinds hit us hard, you know, pandemic happened, you know, you know, the economy is sort of in doldrums across the world. So I think that's a very cyclical pattern in the industry. You know, I've been, I've been through many of these downturns where things go up and down. So I think it's just a matter of what is the tipping point? When does the industry and the customers feel ready? I mean, the example that I gave earlier, for example, was lot of customers were doing container kind of environment, but Docker and Kubernetes truly what the tipping point which really commoditize compute across, you know, these different industries. So I think that's the tipping point that I believe we are missing that sure, if there is 5g, we can build an application, but what is the killer application that is really gonna make 5G successful is yet to be seen, in my opinion.

Simon Phipps (00:30:44):
Right. I, so I, you know, I wonder with 5G whether the problem is more that 5G technology is so riddled with proprietary hooks, that it is hugely expensive to roll out in, in, in low low, poorly funded economies around the world. And I wonder whether the solution is more open and to do more open technologies lower in the stack rather than to try and promote 5g, which is riddled with ways for large corporations to extract taxes from small countries.

Arun Gupta (00:31:22):
Great. No, I mean open in that sense definitely helps in, in, in there. But how do we bring more alliance around it? How do we bring more companies into the fold that this is truly the strategy? How do we make it successful? How do we ensure there is a value for everybody in the food chain, essentially that the telecom operator, the customers, the end users? I think that's gonna be the key. And open source is gonna be sort of a beating thread across all of those beads essentially.

Simon Phipps (00:31:54):
Right now, actually, I, I did wanna ask you, cuz it's, it we're getting close to 20 years since the internal meetings at Sun that you may remember where people were saying that Java would be open source over their dead body. I I don't don't think it was actually over their dead body. I think that we offered to give them new jobs in other companies instead. Do you think that the work that we did back then on making Javar open source was, would, do you think we did the right things? And do you think it's had the results that you expected? Or do you feel that Java has been sidelined in the move to the cloud?

Arun Gupta (00:32:31):
I would say and I was reading an article on this funny, you asked this question. I was reading an article on this literally a couple of days ago, and I was about 2006 timeframe where Rich Green, who was the vice president of Java software at that time, got up on the stage and says, we're gonna make Java open. And I remember how we talked about it that for the last 15 years, we ha it's like my teenager, we have given him the right principles and now we are letting go to the college. And this is how he saw how he correlated Java of it. So I think, I believe, I fundamentally believe Java is far more successful by being in the open than would have been if it was only a one vendor control. I mean, like, we really started with creating that reference implementation, putting that TCK out there.

Now look at Open jk, you know, if it was Sun, now Oracle, they don't have to worry about the optimizations, for example, that Intel does to open JK because to make sure that Java stays relevant across all of these Intel platforms, Intel directly contributes to open j k, and then all the downstream vendors, whether it is Oracle, jk, whether it is Amazon Cotto, whether it is eclipse, Optum, there are lots of different open source distributions of it, or a Azure, you know, they can all, they all benefit from that open ecosystem or open source distribution of jk. So I don't think Java would have been so widely successful had it not been open sourced at that point of time. So I think there is definitely lessons to be learned in terms of what we do with Java and how it is compared to other, not just programming languages, but things like 5G and others as we are talking about.

Simon Phipps (00:34:23):
Right. So, you know, it's, we, we, we, you and I boasted a lot of Java back in that decade, which was a long time ago now, back when my hair wasn't gray. And what do you think is the next bet because I, in the same concept space as Java, I now see web assembly, I now see no js i, I still see Java. What do you think people should be betting on for the future? What is Intel betting on as the technology for the platform independent web in the future?

Arun Gupta (00:34:59):
I don't think there is a single bet, you know, in that sense, like, you know what is a single bat on where we could do everything? Intel product and strategy is literally betting on our open ecosystem. As I talked about, I DM 2.0, right? We are looking at how we could set up that Foundry business model truly. And what that means is today Intel has the capability to say, here is my design, here is how I'm gonna manufacture it. Now, keeping that truly open, because it really relies upon an open ecosystem we would love to see becoming that default foundry, which really is important for the global resilience and the global supply chain of this chip industry, essentially. So we would like to extend that model where, and that's the, that's the very much clear intent for Intel is that how do we make I d m 2.0 very successful at Intel.

So that is not just Intel that is producing the design and manufacturing, the design, the, we have that fab experience. How do we start bringing other partners that are, that want to operate in a fab less manner where they can say, we can design it, we'll manufacture it for you. So that has been the strategy since Pat came on board for Intel. And that truly relies upon an open ecosystem. Things like risk five, you know, that's, that, that's like a big bet for Intel, essentially, where we are hoping we can create the architecture and then everybody can truly compete and co compete, you know, by creating that standard and yet be able to create differentiation for them.

Doc Searls (00:36:36):
So I want to, I want to ask about generative ai. I've been looking down your Twitter threads there and you touched on that and it's a huge topic right now, but first I have to let everybody know that this episode of FLOSS Weekly is brought to you by Collide. Collide is a device trust solution that ensures unsecured devices can't access your apps. Collide is some big news. If you're an Okta user, collide can get your entire fleet up to 100% compliance. Collide Patch is one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, device compliance. Think about it, your identity provider only lets known devices log into apps. But just because a device is known doesn't mean it's in a secure state. In fact, plenty of devices in your fleet probably shouldn't be trusted. Maybe they're running on out of date OS versions or maybe they've got unencrypted credentials lying around.

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So Arun, this morning I actually spent a lot of time on dli on whatever the one is with Discord mid journey on some others I hadn't tried before that are freemium ones as well to help somebody create a a, a cover for their new book because they, they're writing about stuff that's highly copyrighted and and she can't use those. And so I was trying to come up with some things, mid journey especially did an amazing job. And interestingly, that's a discord and is probably the closest to being an open source play. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are about this, where Intel's going with it and it's still new. We're gonna be downstream pretty far in a fairly short time, so where's it all going?

Arun Gupta (00:39:46):
Yeah, I mean if you think about generative ai, what is this concept of gen? It basically describes the algorithms that are used to create data that can resemble human generated content, whether it is audio, text images, text simulation videos, doesn't matter all across the board, but it's really leveraging that, you know, creating that human resemblance to the generated content. And it's not new, you know, it's, if you think about it, it's a tech that really created wise assistance, you know infinite evolving games and chat parts. So this technology has always existed, and Intel's goal really is to support all AI models, including generative ai and our of course we wanna do that in the most responsible manner with the responsible perspectives and principles. So I think that's the important element, first of all, to think about it. The second part of it is, when you think about creating this generative AI model you need lots of productivity, lots of scale, you know, and good enough performance for AI workloads with commonly available software and hardware.

And if you think about it, if you wanna run that kind of a model, also the productivity loss of scale with commonly available software, Python, TensorFlow, whatever these softwares are, Zion, you know we have hundred million plus instances spread across the world, across cloud providers, across private data centers, across networking across client, you know, you name it. There are so many instances spread across the world. And that's where we go back to the philosophy that I mentioned earlier, that Intel contributes to frameworks like PyTorch, TensorFlow and other frameworks. Psychic Modern. You pick a framework by which you will leverage for generative ai and we optimize them so that you can run them in the most optimal manner on the most widely available hardware that is available to you. So I think that's the critical element that you wanna understand about it, that why this matters, first of all. Now, what are some of the things that we do, particularly on the, in the span of generative ai? 

We have done generative models for deep fakes that aim to impersonate people, basically. So that's one of the examples that I can talk about. So for example our dfa detection algorithm is integrated into our realtime platform called US Fake Catcher. The basically can detect fake videos with 96% accuracy rate. That's one of the elements that I wanna talk about. And it should not be just to prevent heart, but also enhance lives. So for example there's a project that's going on, which is about speech synthesis project that enables people who have lost their voices to talk. Again, this technology is used in Intel's, I will always be me digital storybook. So Doc, as you were talking about, I recommend you to take a look at that digital storybook as well. And this is truly done in in partnership with Dell s and Motor Neuron Disease Association.

You know, so the work that is happening over there. Then in addition we have trusted Media Research team is also working on using generative AI to make 3D experiences more realistic. For example, Intel's Carla Carla's acronym is an open source urban driving simulator developed to support the development, training and validation of autonomous driving systems. So all a all across the board, if you think about it, generative AI is a name that has come up, but Intel has been deeply involved providing that optimal frameworks, the large amount of fleet that you need to run this at scale and do this in the most res responsible perspective and principle manner. So I think that's sort of been the intel strategy all along. As we think about this,

Doc Searls (00:43:58):
Well, I was <laugh>, I was just trying to patch you car. I found Carla, c a r c a r l a, an open source driving simulator into our chat <laugh>. So we can, so, but that is really interesting and and I'm wondering if this goes to combining human and device intelligence and driving what we have so far. I mean, I, I've always driven old cars. I'm an old shade tree mechanic, you might say. Cuz I drove a, when I was poor, I drove a lot of lousy cars, <laugh>, and I learned how to fix them. But we have like a a 2020 Toyota top model Camry. It has over 100 completely vexing and, and crazy icons and two, three, and four letter acronyms that drive my wife crazy and drive me crazy too. And I'm the technical one and <laugh>.

But I, but I think that there's you know, the, the debate about Tesla and self-driving cars is, I think a, a weird thing because I, I don't want I think most drivers who want to drive one of kind of combination of the two in a way you want something, I mean, I love the rear collision detecting thing. Like you're backing out, like we're back into Camry, out between two giant SUVs or vans. I'm not seeing the kid running by behind me and it hits the brakes automatically, right? That's a good thing. But it seems to, this is like a really low level of intelligence and maybe with Carla and stuff like that, that we're, we're moving towards something that's a bit more intelligent on both sides, where the two inte forms of intelligence can dance, knowing what the other is going to do, you know, and how the other's going to help. Do you see hope for that?

Arun Gupta (00:45:50):
Well if somebody would have predicted that generative AI would be a thing in three years I think they would be lying. Chad G truly kind of created that terminology. I mean that concept has been happening, but the way it's called is generative. AI is becoming more and more prominent now, so I think it's anybody's guess. But you know, as I said earlier Intel really sees this role in providing that optimal framework, optimal set of hardware in the widest range possible for developers to be successful, make sure their workflows are fully optimized and where it goes. And now I think Simon would recognize this, you know at some we used to say innovation happens elsewhere. We just provide a platform for others to be successful on that.

Doc Searls (00:46:47):
So waiting for Simon, but <laugh>

Simon Phipps (00:46:50):
Well, I, I, I actually in that quote that, that, that quote was actually a, from Bill Joy who observed that that you can't hire all the smart people. And that one, one of the, one of the great strengths of open source is that the by using open source, you get to leverage the skills of people who don't work for you, who are probably smarter than you are. And so the, you know, one of the key things in putting together an effective open source strategy is to hold your IP lightly in your hands and embrace smart people who are elsewhere, not create walls so that they can't contribute to you. And so that, that was really where that, that quote comes from. And, and I, you know, I, I see us as having a, a, a challenge with that in the area of ai because I see first of all the way that AI works being sufficiently opaque, that it's very difficult for a, a crowd of people to participate in it.

And secondly, unfortunately, it's being patented all the way to hell so that it's gonna be very difficult for innovators to move in and not feel that they're going to be attacked as soon as they get in there. And I feel that as an open source community, we haven't done enough to make sure that AI can benefit from that open effect. Do you think, Iran, that there is anything we can do as an open source community to create open source AI as opposed to the, the, the rather poor attempts unfortunately, that are happening with AI at the moment where the name open source is being applied to things that are ultimately proprietary or restrictive?

Arun Gupta (00:48:42):
Well, there is a there's a lot of good work happening in LF AI and data, which is child Foundation of Linnux Foundation, essentially. So lot of the projects moving over there, really truly providing vendor neutral governance meritocracy based model, which is what the developers are used to, where truly, you know, you are sending up requests and then, you know, you are truly collaborating, as you say, innovation happens elsewhere where all these smart people are really truly working together. So I think that's a good step in the right direction, in my opinion. I really hope and wish, like, I mean <inaudible>, you know, creating its own foundation essentially, you know, giving away the control by meta, you know, over here. I think those are the sort of the right steps essentially, which truly is moving into the right direction. So I would, I would not say that all hope is lost but there is definitely steps in the right direction. Can we do more aggressively? Absolutely. We can do it more and more I think, and that's what keeps the fire alive for me personally.

Simon Phipps (00:49:43):
Right, right. One of the other things that is going on that, that fascinates me and I assume ought to fascinate intel, is the idea of of putting technology inside human beings. And we've heard Mr. Musk talking about the idea of putting chips inside people. Do you think that that's gonna be a business intel that's gonna get into is wiring people up with semiconductors so that they can run open source in their bodies?

Arun Gupta (00:50:14):
I cannot comment upon any of the future plans of our products <laugh>. And I don't know how I would subscribe to that personally. You know, if this thing becomes a reality, would I put a chip in my body, for example? I don't know that yet.

Simon Phipps (00:50:27):
Yeah, it's pretty scary to me. You know, this, this, this, this whole thing with with AI and with embedded biological semiconductors and so on, it's all very final. It's decisions are being made that it's very hard to review. And I, I think that that's the, the big change that concerns me most, you know, that there's the little bit of me that's very excited about technology in the future and wants to play with new things. And then there's the part of me that worries that those new things that other people are playing with those new, new things, and they're using them to to decide how long people should go to prison for. And they're using them to decide what color of skin people are gonna have to have to get through immigration, and whether you can detect what gender people are from looking at their photographs and all these technologies are being used for those things as well. How, how does Intel feel about these ethical considerations, which have been a big topic of discussion in, in open source? Do you feel that we need to embed you know, that we need a, a range of ethical open source licenses, for example?

Arun Gupta (00:51:38):
No, absolutely. I think this is super important. You know, like with any technology, you know, not just the one that is created by Intel, but any technology, you know, there is always people who will find unethical users of it and they will put it to unethical usage. But Intel has a team dedicated towards ethical AI particularly. So I think it might be important, might be relevant if we bring like some of those folks up here on the podcast and have them talk about ethical AI part of it. So I think I, no, I mean Intel truly believes that whatever is in our capacity and ab ability, we will stop people from using it in the wrong manner. And we build the right guards for that accordingly.

Doc Searls (00:52:23):
I have a a question about by the way, if you have any guests you wanna send us unethical AI or any other topics, please do be short on guests because we have an infinite amount of Wednesdays to fill in the future. But I wanna ask the, the Linux Foundation a a bigger and bigger. I mean, I think at the beginning Linux Journal, which I worked for for 23 years, was possibly the first institutional wrapper as it were for Linux back in 1994 when Linux arrived at 1.0. And now the Linux Foundation is not just for Linux, but of course for all of open source. But it's a, it's a business society. I s I suppose primarily it's comprised of businesses. They get together and it's a wonderful place, kind of a United Nations of businesses. And, and we've had a lot of people on from, from the lf and I just got involved with the LF in a new way because for customer comments and nonprofit that I'm on the board of and helped found, just joined the Open Wallet Foundation because there are now dozens and dozens of foundations with lit a foundation called the Linux Foundation.

And so that in itself is like ecosystems of an ecosystems that are also part of decentralized ecosystems of many kinds that ideally are a mesh of corporate interests and personal interests in producing open code that's good for everybody. And so I'm wondering how that looks to you, cuz you're pretty highly involved in it at this point, I suppose, the CNCF and other things.

Arun Gupta (00:54:01):
Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm quite deeply involved with several LF bodies. For example my boss she is the member, she's a LF board of director for Intel, and I'm the alternate, so I attend the LF board meetings as well. I'm the governing board chair for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. And funny enough, I have represented C N CF through three companies. Actually, you know, I made Amazon join C N cf, that was my first gig. And I was a governing board rep for them. Then my previous gig was Apple, so I was the governing board rep for Apple at C N C F and now at Intel and the governing board rep. So I've been involved with them for about six years now, almost. I'm also the governing board rep for open source security foundation and are deeply involved over there as well in kind of bringing our efforts together over overall as well.

So, no, you're absolutely right. I think LF is, LF truly provides that vendor agnostic playground. You know, if you wanna bring a foundation there, if you wanna bring projects over there, if you wanna create a new foundation, it has that IT support that you need, which you don't have to worry about know where, if you wanna run a open source project truly in a vendor agnostic manner, who is gonna do your c If you wanna do the C or A D C O, who's gonna do the validation? Who's gonna set up your infrastructure behind the scene? Who's gonna provide the marketing behind the scene for you? So with a project really coming to lf, either to a foundation or as a foundation to the LF itself, you get all of that support behind the scene that truly allows you to focus on the technicalities of the project. Because most of the time, if you are the lead maintainer or the contributor, that's what you wanna focus on as opposed to the other elements of it. So I think in that sense, LF truly provides that breeding ground of all of these open source projects. And I'm not saying LF is the only one. There are other models as well. So it's not the one size fits all model. It really works across the board.

Doc Searls (00:56:09):
That's terrific. I and it's trade association there. That's, that's what it is. Just so if we have that straight we're really close to the end of the show and this is where we ask you if you is any, if there any questions we, we haven't asked you'd like to answer briefly before we go and ask the final fun question?

Arun Gupta (00:56:29):
No, I think you covered it very well actually. I would say I'm super excited, super happy to be here at Intel because I think it's a great opportunity for the company to be invested into open ecosystem. You know I truly believe in terms of how Pat and Greg are turning the company around, for me personally, it's a huge opportunity to build that open ecosystem story across the board and work with wonderful people like you and others in the industry to tell our story. And I really see my role as a chief storytelling officer on why Intel contributing to opensource, how is it contributing to opensource and is what is not just what is in it for Intel. It is what is in it for the customers, what is in it for the developers for them to be successful, why Intel should keep contributing to opensource. I think it's the most exciting part for me.

Doc Searls (00:57:23):
Wow, that's exciting. And, and I love your excitement. I clearly you're happy to work there and they're very privileged to have you. We always close the two, two quick questions which are, what are your favorite text editor and scripting language?

Arun Gupta (00:57:38):
<Laugh>? I let's see. Vi VI is gonna be my, my editor, not emax, but VI for sure. I've used VI for the longest time. And in terms of the scripting language, I would say maybe more like Python, you know, is my favorite scripting language, you know. I am not a deep Python developer, but I just, I can fiddle around with Python though.

Doc Searls (00:58:01):
<Laugh>, we got a ring there from <laugh> from one of the channels. <Laugh>, I guess that's of proving of, of Python. Well, it has been fabulous having you on the show, Arun. And we'll have to have you back. Good things will happen in the meantime. And and send us more guests. <Laugh>.

Arun Gupta (00:58:19):
Thank you. I will. No, I think there are a lot of people

Doc Searls (00:58:20):
Very connected. And I, we sure.

Arun Gupta (00:58:23):
Yeah. No, I think there are lots of people who would love to be on this show. I'm deeply connected in the industry, so let's talk offline. And thank you for the opportunity. I'm super happy to be here as

Doc Searls (00:58:32):
Well. Yeah. And and, and us too. Thanks a lot for being here.

Arun Gupta (00:58:37):
Thank you.

Doc Searls (00:58:38):
So, Simon, that was good. Was that your bell that I heard?

Simon Phipps (00:58:43):
No. Wasn't my somebody else's

Doc Searls (00:58:45):
Belt <laugh>?

Simon Phipps (00:58:48):
I thought he was gonna say net beans, honestly, but, you know, there we go. 

Doc Searls (00:58:52):
It said it a little bit like the, like the one on the counter at the hotel was,

Ant Pruitt  (00:58:55):
That was my bill of approval for the Python. I, I have,

Simon Phipps (00:59:00):
Ah, there we go.

Ant Pruitt  (00:59:01):
I have the bail of approval and I've decided to, whenever we get Python and stuff like that, we're going to give those a good old

Simon Phipps (00:59:07):
Dean. No, that was the fourth wall being freak doc. I,

Doc Searls (00:59:11):
I, there we go. I, I, I wish we we could have Guido on the show. We've asked him before, but he's very retired. It turns out. Young guy. And he doesn't want to, wants to get out of the fray. 

Simon Phipps (00:59:21):
Hey, re retiring now. There's an idea, doc. We should both try sometime. <Laugh>.

 so yeah, Intel you know, it's fascinating bit of, bit of the industry. I, I deal a lot with patent hungry semiconductor companies and Intel is one of the friendliest of the semiconductor companies when it comes to open source in the general Mele of of creating systemic effects to advantage companies that you see. Because Intel's very much in that area of creating systemic effects rather than creating direct effects to Advantage Day company. And I think that's, that's why they are actually so, so comfortable with doing open sources cuz they understand the idea that if you create markets and you create environments that feed your business model, your business succeeds. So I, I wasn't overwhelmingly surprised to hear the things that Arun had to say cuz they, they all kind of fit the the general ethos.

Doc Searls (01:00:19):
So I irun wait, I noticed, but I, I was involved with Sun during the Spark period and evangelizing Spark and tried to hold together the collection of really unfriendly companies that were <laugh> that Yeah. That Sun had recruited to participate in the Spark Project, which is an awful lot of fun. And it was, and it was also in, in just pre Linux time when everybody was trying to duplicate or an SVR four. It was at that time from at and t. Yeah. And and and BST hadn't taken off with, it was a real interesting time. It was also when I was stuck in an airport with Bill Joy for an afternoon <laugh>. And it, and that was one of the most entertaining and interesting afternoons I've ever said I've ever spoken. I can imagine.

Arun Gupta (01:01:08):
Can imagine. Well, I think I, I actually have quoted this in the podcast itself. It is freaking cool to work for a company where I don't have to explain the value proposition of opensource either to my CTO O or to my c o. It's just amazing. Oh,

Doc Searls (01:01:26):
Yeah. I

Arun Gupta (01:01:27):
Mean that's, they, they inherently get it

Doc Searls (01:01:29):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. I, I I mean, I I, I've always thought from the beginning before we called it that opensource wasn't widely used until 1998 before that result, free software. But it was seen, it seen to me that the basic tes of it are what we operate language on <laugh>. It's what we operate, you know, affections on clubs, whatever, you know, wherever people are gathered, open source of, of a kind is at work and Yeah. It's what we have in common with each other. Yeah. And and it has to do with what we create as well. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Arun Gupta (01:02:03):
And every time I talk to Greg, you know, like we were reviewing our OKRs with him a couple of weeks ago, and it was like, oh, this is so music to my ears that everything that you're doing in terms of bringing open ecosystem strategy, et cetera, et cetera, he was all excited. And it's like when you see level of excitement from your CT O and your ceo, it's like, oh, I'm at the right place. Because then see, I mean, I'm not afraid of climbing long uphill runs and I'm a, I'm a I'm a trade runner. I mean, so that's a given one for me. But what makes it difficult is when you have so many pebbles in your shoe that is difficult to run. And at Intel, I always see that, okay, my boss or her boss who is the CT o they're always looking for ways. Let me take those tables out for you so that you can run more effectively. And that makes the uphill run so much more enjoyable, so much more rewarding, so much more pleasurable.

Doc Searls (01:02:53):
So I I I, I see from your, from your Twitter thing, you not only run, but you lift, which I think an does too. And are, are you still lifting for fun and the rest?

Arun Gupta (01:03:07):
I am, yeah. I have a full garage in my gym. I have a rogue power cage barbell, all alsos of weights, jump box, battle ropes, all alsos. Wow. So gear in my garage. Yes.

Ant Pruitt  (01:03:20):

Arun Gupta (01:03:21):
Oh, that, yeah, I see that. I see that. <Laugh>.

Doc Searls (01:03:25):

Arun Gupta (01:03:25):
Know, when I saw that background I was kinda wondering that that looks like a PowerCase, but I'm not sure what is that being in the background there? <Laugh>,

Doc Searls (01:03:33):
That's a, my mine is not this probably. There ought to be in my background here. There ought to be. Yeah. I mean, when I was a teenager, and Anna has heard me on this before. I mean, I, I, I, the only time I ever lifted in my life with any seriousness is when I was 50 and turning 16. And I, I barely cleared puberty at that time. I'm sure I was on it. And I, and I, and I went from like one 13 to 1 25, and at the end of it, I could, I could clean jerk and bench press 1 25 and Right. Right. And that was, that <laugh> that's like five times what I could do now. Right. I suppose. But you, you've gotta be tempted. I I said we have another area back here where I could possibly put some stuff. We'll see.

Arun Gupta (01:04:14):
No, I'm, I'm like honestly, this morning was the first morning I did not work out in the morning. Otherwise, I work out every day. And the reason I did not work out this morning is because I wasn't feeling well. I'm glad the recording went successful. But otherwise I typically work out for an hour every day. Either a run or, or a left. You know, one of those things happened in the morning because that's what get my energy and blood flowing for the rest of the day.

Doc Searls (01:04:45):
That's fantastic. And <laugh>, you have any additional thoughts on that? An because <laugh> do, do you run every morning? I don't even know Aunt <laugh>. I,

Ant Pruitt  (01:04:58):
I absolutely hate cardio. Absolutely hate cardio, but it's, but it, it is a must. So I will walk Reg quite regularly, but I hate Cat Cardio with a passion, but much respect to you, Mr. Gupta. All right.

Arun Gupta (01:05:11):
No, no, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we have our own things, you know, whatever gets us in the zone, I think is important. And over the years, I mean, I've never been a lifter. You know, I've started lifting for the last three, four years, five years only now. And honestly, I was a runner for a very, I mean, I've been runner for almost 40 years now. But I was trying to qualify for Boston Marathon. I could not. And then my wife pushed me to start lifting because that is a fundamental element to be a stronger runner. And once I got into lifting, once I joined a gym back in 2018 is when I qualified for Boston Marathon. And I ended up running the Boston Marathon in 2019, and then I got completely hooked onto it. I decided buying a gym for me, a full-blown rogue, Powerade, the whole deal in my garage. So, really keeps me happy. Like, you know, in between meetings, you know, even if there are five minutes, I'll just go do like, you know, 10 pull-ups and I'll, and few bench presses and boom, you know, back to the meeting.

Doc Searls (01:06:12):
So, <laugh>, we've gone along with the show and I didn't end it properly when I was supposed to end it, and it's okay. So I'm gonna go back to Simon because we need him to do his plugs. We always do plugs here. And so Simon, what do you, what do you got? And

Simon Phipps (01:06:30):
Now I, you know, I'm very, very light on plugs at the moment right at the moment. I, I mentioned to Arun at the beginning of the show, I'm spending all of my time dealing with some legislation that's happening in Europe that could have a significant effect on open source. And so if you want to find out about that you will need to have a look at my blog. My blog has moved since the last time you saw it. It is now at the dot web mink with a dot between the M and the I. And you'll find all of the comments that I've made about the Cyber Resilience Act and more happening there. And you'll note that my at Web mink social media address is now on Masteron. And I would welcome followers on Masteron. In terms of conferences really, I, I'm, I am not even putting in a call for paper applications anymore. Life is far too busy to go and do that plug wise, that's all I've got, doc. I'm sorry.

Doc Searls (01:07:33):
<Laugh>. Okay. Well, thank you. Plug wise I should note that next week we have Joki Lok. He's with Jo Ocom, G O L o C, interesting outfit. I was at his wedding last summer. <Laugh> actually <laugh> and took pictures of it for him. And that was that was at Dwe Camp, which is also an interesting thing. And we'll probably even talk about that. That's coming up next week. So we'll see you then. I'm Doc Searls. This is FLOSS Weekly and next time.

Ant Pruitt  (01:08:09):
Hey folks, I'm Ant Pruitt. I have a question for you. How do you think your hardworking team with the Club TWiT corporate subscription plan? Of course, show your appreciation and reward your tech team with the subscription to Club TWiT. Keep everyone informed and entertained with podcasts, covering the latest in tech with the Club TWiTch subscription. They get access to all of our podcasts ad free, and they also get access to our members-only Discord access to exclusive outtakes and behind the scenes footage and special content like the fireside chats that I enjoy hosting. Plus, they also get shows like Hands-on Mac, hands-on Windows, and the Untitled Linux Show. So go to TWiT and look for corporate plans for complete details.

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