FLOSS Weekly 718 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Doc Searls (00:00:00):
This ISOs Weekly. I'm Doc Searls, and this week Jonathan Bennett and I talk with Lubos Kocman and Douglas DeMaio of Susa about openSUSE Leap and all kinds of adjacent topics that are really important and moving fast. And you need to hear it. And that is coming up. Next. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This, this is TWiT . This is Floss Weekly episode 718, recorded Wednesday, February 8th, 2023. Future of openSUSE Leap. This episode of Floss Weekly is brought to you by Collide. Let's collide with a K. Collide is an endpoint security solution that gives it teams a single dashboard for all devices regardless of their operating system. Visit to learn more and activate a free 14 day trial today. No credit card required. And by Barracuda. Barracuda has identified 13 types of email threats and how cyber criminals use them every day. Fishing, conversation hacking, ransomware plus 10 more tricks cyber criminals use to steal money from your company. For personal information from your employees and customers, get your free e-book at Hello again, everyone everywhere. I am Doc Searls. This is Floss Weekly, and I am joined this week by Jonathan Bennett, himself and myself. I hear myself <laugh>. He's, you're, you're, you're like a month away from having your third child, which is strange for somebody who looks like he's Yeah,

<laugh>. He's

Jonathan Bennett (00:01:51):
Too, too young or too old.

Doc Searls (00:01:54):
<Laugh>. Too young, man. <Laugh>. I had my third when I was too old, man. I was, I was, I was 50

Jonathan Bennett (00:02:02):
Some days. I feel like I'm too old. Goodness. <laugh>.

Doc Searls (00:02:06):
Wow. I'll bet. Yeah. <laugh>, I'll bet. That's intense. So, so we're, we're off to a little bit of a late start. So are you, you've been keeping up with what's going on with SUSE over the years?

Jonathan Bennett (00:02:18):
You know, a little bit. I, I mainly run Red Hat products, so Fedora, CTOs I, red Hat Products and Red Hat derivatives, I'll put it that way. So now I've, I've pretty much moved to Rocky, although I've got a couple machines that are ammo Linux and I'll see the, the SUSE guys as cousins maybe, because they tend to use RPM to build their distros as well. And then there's also, and we'll get into this I'm sure, but there's some services that SSA provides for, for the, you know, the entire ecosystem. That's really helpful. So there's some, there's some neat stuff that SUSE does that, that, you know, I've used and I'm aware of when, when CentOS made their big change from CTOs to CentOS Stream. SUSE was actually one of the options that I really considered. So it would've been Celest, Susa, Linux Enterprise to, to move a bunch of servers to, didn't need to because other things popped up. But definitely, definitely paid attention to what they're doing. We've actually

Doc Searls (00:03:18):
Had, yeah, we have, we have a lot to talk about. So let me, let me hurry up and, and, and get into the bios of not one, but two gents that we have here. Which is Lubos Kocman and Douglas DeMaio. Lu Bush has been working for Susi from, and I'm never sure whether what the right pronunciation is, cuz I know if that's in a country suse. But anyway in the Czech Republic and the release manager for openSUSE Leap and Leap Micro, he's the driver of adaptable Linux platform community work group. Owns the open source, SUSE open source policy that was inherited from a predecessor two years ago. Helping Doug with, with the project representation at conferences in the Czech Republic. And he tries to help with anything related to SUSE's cooperation with Young Talents.

I'll let him go into more about that. Douglass is a board member and manager the openSUSE project marketing communications at event manager for it as well. Free open source and software enthusiast and an expat and veteran are an Army veteran. And SoCal, native <laugh> an 8 0 5 beer, beer, beer fan. And of course, I'm not in Santa Barbara right now, but I am a Santa Barbarian and I, and when I was drinking <laugh>, I drank 8 0 5 beer, which is, which is the regional, the regional beer from there. So I'll actually start with a question for that. Are, are you drinking that as an expat now? Somewhere? Douglas

Douglas DeMaio (00:04:52):
Funny enough to openSUSE beer the Open Souse beer that we have, that we bring to Fossum the brewery here in the town did a co brew with 8 0 5 a few years back, so <laugh> but, but we can't actually get it over here. I mean, we have, we have a lot of good beer in Germany where, where I live. So, but when I go back, of course I drink 8 0 5.

Doc Searls (00:05:14):
It, it's, so to put that in full context, the area code for central and, and, and south coastal California is the area code eight oh five, and it's in my phone, <laugh> an eight oh five phone. And when people see it, sometimes I, I get this old home kind of thing, you know, like, oh wow, you're from 8 0 5, you know, is is that like Santa Maria or, or Santa Barbara or <laugh> or Ventura. It's a, it's a thing. It's it's probably more identifiable as where you're from, I think, than some others. Yeah, I don't know. That's probably about as far as we wanna go into that. So, so tell us about, give us the, the kind of the opening ish on, on what openSUSE Leap is or are

Douglas DeMaio (00:06:02):
Go ahead. You can talk to, you're the right, you tend to be the release manager, so <laugh>

Lubos Kocman (00:06:07):
Makes sense actually. So we have not just one, but multiple distributions right now. You know, each user, they have their own preference, right? Somebody actually likes to get stuff fast. He likes to be able to get the latest changes as soon as possible. And some people are a little bit more on the conservative side and they like the, you know, usual one year or a six month relief release cadence. So the leave would be very typical distribution with basically yearly. So every 12 months the support is for 18. So there is six months overlap in between releases where we actually keep updating the previous version. And it's really aiming at if I would be recommending somebody like first opens to the base distribution it'll be probably, it's, it's the most traditional it'll be probably easiest to get used to. And the other <inaudible> that are totally worth mentioning is Tul weight. That's the rolling dis you've probably heard about. So if you would be into Arch and stuff, I guess like some of it would be probably better match for you than, than leap.

And then we have Micros, which is the threat I would say most used out of everything that we have. And that's that's basically tumble it on steroid. It's, it's combining, so it desktop is combining fat packs which is a little bit unusual for us, right? So the folks most of them actually comes from fat packs there. And and it's immutable, which I'm not sure if you're aware of, but has three partition or the audio, the updates go through transactional updates. They're using b bt RFS or Snapshot. You're updating Snapshot rebooting into the changes rather than destroying your current system in case of failed update. So yep. Would be the traditional one, probably closest to what people are used to.

Jonathan Bennett (00:07:53):
And then how does how does Len Enterprise suse Linux Enterprise one came out really weird. How does that fit in

Lubos Kocman (00:07:58):
There? I, I should have actually started with that. Right? So LI is basically based on the packages, the binary packages from sl, right? So in the past we used to rebuild the sources that was basically, so <inaudible> same sources just rebuilt with maybe different set of macros, maybe enabling different features and certain packages. And then in 15 3, 2 years ago, we've received an idea from product management, Hey, what if you would make it identical? So if we, if we migrate from non-paid to pay from LEAP to slash takes like two minutes, we exchange few branding packages and, and done. So since about two years ago, we actually use less packages plus branding, and we supply, I don't know, 8,000 combined packages onto les. And that would be basically

Jonathan Bennett (00:08:47):

Douglas DeMaio (00:08:48):
And the story actually started well, I mean, it's been, it's been progressing ever since, I believe it was 2016. I was in a meeting when they talked about releasing the first third binary B airs for it actually. And, and it, it was it was a good move. And I mean, that's kind of where you got or where you have leap 42, which that could be another conversation, some other point, right? But that's where it all started.

Jonathan Bennett (00:09:18):
Leap, leap 42, that sounds like a great band name. What is that? <Laugh> <laugh>?

Douglas DeMaio (00:09:24):
Well, traditionally, we, we were so our last regular release, which was similar to the say, let's say fedora on the six month release cycle was was 13.2. And so this meeting happened and we looked at bringing the sles and and well open Suza at the time is what it was called a little bit closer. And so we ended up having to rename we ended up renaming the distribution so that people could identify with the differences. So you have tumbleweed was sort of like beginning, let's say, to be redone because it was started off by Greg K. And then and so we needed something else to at least like, explain to people the differences. And so we ended up coming up with well, someone in the community came up with a leap, and of course, the, at the time it was to align with Slee 12, so at least we had a storyline there. Like, you know, openSUSE Leap is always like 30 ahead. But, but that kind of changed a little bit later. And we started off with 42 because traditionally within Susa and openSUSE, a lot of projects that have started have had their main release as 4.2 or 42 Yes. Being one of those.

Jonathan Bennett (00:10:53):
Nice. Now if I heard correctly, you pronounce it sleigh instead of sls for the, the actual enterprise offering,

Lubos Kocman (00:11:02):
It's the family of the products, right? There is no product called sleigh, but it's the Linux Enterprise product family that will be Les s SLT and so on. So ah, in place are usually to slee as set of products or solutions if you want. But we usually means less, like in 99% of cases,

Jonathan Bennett (00:11:21):
<Laugh>. Okay? It's, it's always fun to talk to someone for the first time because, you know, you've seen it in text, you probably sent emails IRC about it, and the first time you hear like the original creator or somebody that works for the company pronounced something, your mind is kind of blown. Like, I've been, right? I've been saying this wrong. My my inner narrator has gotten this wrong for years and years. What in the world, <laugh>?

Douglas DeMaio (00:11:44):
Well, you know, su I think you're all saying it correct. You know, the, the, I know there's a whole video on how to pronounce the name of it.

Lubos Kocman (00:11:51):
<Laugh> Suza Suza, yeah. Su 

Jonathan Bennett (00:11:54):
I read years ago that it is to be pronounced the same way as the American band writer John Phillips Suza. And so that's pretty much what I, what I have stuck with until if, if one of you gentlemen wanted to correct me and tell me that I'm not quite right, I would

Douglas DeMaio (00:12:10):
Say you're correct there. I mean, then it, then again, you have phonetics. And that's one thing that is a little bit more different. I mean, lush could probably clarify that with his name, maybe. So

Lubos Kocman (00:12:22):
In Cze Republic they would say, yeah, exactly, <laugh>. So in Cze Republic you would say suse in Germany, some people say Suza depends also on the region, they really pronounce Z for the hidden S

Doc Searls (00:12:34):
Yeah, I, I, I was once in, in Prague and sitting with at a, in a conference table, and these people are talking in languages, I don't know. And, and I'm asking them, what are you speaking? And this one says, well, the Czech one is saying, well, I'm speaking Cze. And the Slovak, I understands me, the one says, well, the Cze understands me, but they don't understand Polish, and I understand Polish. That's true. And it's, and it's crazy. I mean, I, I, I was once in, in the only time I was in Sweden, actually, was for a few minutes, and I'm half Swedish, by the way. My mother was Swedish, but I don't know any Swedish. And, and these two guys are talking, and I know one from Denmark. And I said, what's the, what are you speaking? And he says, well, he's speaking sweet as I'm speaking Danish.

But what I said, what's the difference? Said, well, it's mostly spelling. And I thought we have nothing like that <laugh> that situation over here. And I, but I wanna, I wanna get a little bit into the you know, where SUSE is is used and by whom. But first I wanna let everybody know that this episode of Floss Weekly is brought to you by Collide. You know, the old saying when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Well, the traditional approach to device security is that hammer a blend instrument that can't solve nuanced problems, even after installing clunky agents that users hate it. Teams still have to deal with mountains of support tickets over the same old issues, and they have no way to address things like unencrypted, SSH keys, os updates, or pretty much anything that goes on with a Linux device.

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Douglas DeMaio (00:15:29):
So, so I mean, I'll, I'll I'll at least make some clarity points there. Like, so basically I mean, we work for Susa, but specifically, like I, I would just be talking about openSUSE. And I can give you a demographic breakdown of, of sort of like number one is us, number two is Germany, number three is Brazil, and number four is China, and five is Russia. As far as the leading sort of countries that we have on the, at least our Mamo used to be called pwi. But for the most part you know, I mean, granted, if you look at the, the map, it's, it's usually all over the world, really. A lot of use in we have a big community in Indonesia, and then of course we have a, a lot of people just spread out throughout Europe. But that's, I think I answered, does that answer your question a little bit?

Doc Searls (00:16:28):
Yeah, I know it does. I mean, you're, you're clearly, I mean, it lit is often an open source and pretty much everything in the open source world is international or non-national, I think is a better way to put it. It's interesting to break it down. And I imagine you're dealing with many languages as well, probably more than some other distributions are. A questionnaire is actually, do you think of it as a, a distribution anymore? Is that still a relevant, distinct distinction?

Douglas DeMaio (00:16:54):
Well, openSUSE really is it has distributions under its umbrella because it's really a project filled with distributions, tools, and of course, community. So that's kind of how I would explain it at least.

Lubos Kocman (00:17:14):
We also have a lot of tools which actually generate the distribution. We have projects actually that serve for translating of the software, which is not necessarily part of the distribution, right? It's, it's it's actually above it. So definitely not just this drone.

Jonathan Bennett (00:17:29):
One of the, one of the big things that I've been aware of from openSUSE for a long time is the openSUSE Bills service, which the acronym there O B S means something different to a, a lot of us O

Lubos Kocman (00:17:41):

Jonathan Bennett (00:17:42):
Yes. I guess, I guess the studio there is the differentiator but goodness, it's, it's not very uncommon at all. You see quite a, quite often a, a package, you know, you, you, you go to look up some piece of software and they'll have a link, here's where you can get our binaries from the openSUSE build service. And that's, if I, if I remember correctly, that is not just Susa. And you know, of course being RPMs, it'll probably work on Fedora and Santos as well. But you guys, if if, if I remember correctly, you have Debbie and builds and all kinds of builds that that thing spits out and a lot of people use it, right?

Lubos Kocman (00:18:15):
Yes, that's true. Can I speak about it? So it, it's actually really like even when we are trying to do partnership, I mean, as far as Open Suze goes with other companies recently, Cisco and the Open H 2 64, just like Fed did before using OBS was one of these selling points because they actually have to provide binaries to Debian, to Fedra and to us as well, and building it in a single place and have like maybe easy pipeline where to actually get the data from and, and just put it on their servers. Like OS does the job for all of the distros, right? So yeah, we can even build like binaries for Windows. We are building Apex wsl through cross compilation, right? With P G W, so you can do that as well.

Jonathan Bennett (00:19:00):
Yeah. Very cool. And how does that tie in with Open qa? I am much less familiar with Open qa, but I'm seeing here I'm a link on the same page, and it sounds neat, but I don't know much of anything about it.

Lubos Kocman (00:19:13):
Vacuum me. Go ahead. Okay. Well, I, I'm coming from redhead, like that was my previous employer, and I can tell you that the open query is probably one of the reasons why we can have like that many times less employees and still like de deliver amazing job, right? Because if, if it wouldn't be open qa, like I can't imagine like how we would test all the software. So basically how it works is it's a, it's a infrastructure I would say where you can actually test any arbitrary software. You have very powerful tools. You can write like Script Logic and Pearl, and you can use image comparison to actually compare what you are getting with expected results. So you can test anything from like remote desktop to, I don't know, windows installation stuff is running in vm. And you can really say, do this and then check if the expected out production matches, you know, what we would like to, and it's awesome, like before any change, change gets to distribution vm like thousands of tests before it gets in, and then before we publish to the users, additional tons of tons of tests are executed and it's really, it's really awesome.

 Like in redhead, I was actually trying to test sp which was, you know, it's remote desktop and I was actually looking for something that could, you know, work with the canvas on the client, and there was no real test framework that we use image comparison. And this would have save me a lot of, lot of time. So it, it was a, it was the project that

Douglas DeMaio (00:20:46):
Was started off from hack week, actually. We've had a few very successful projects started out from hack week micros Web web late Yeah, for example. And, and so it, it really has taken on a life of its own. The first, the only reason Fedora started using it was really like one of, one of the guys we work with, like wrote a test for Fedora and found a bug and, and then like, you know, it just, it, it just took one initiative to start and then you know, there's other distributions that use it as well. It's, it's very useful. Yeah, fedora you have KD that uses it. You have Cuba cubits os that uses it. We actually have a, a few pages on the Wiki our wiki that describes the other people that are, you know, participating or at least using it. And, and then there's, there's just that shadow usage that we randomly find out about here and there.

Jonathan Bennett (00:21:52):
<Laugh>. Yeah. So we've, we've talked about fedora and talked about Red Hat stuff. I'm, I'm real curious what the story is with RPM and how both the Opus Suza world and the Red Hat world both use the same package manager. And I'm, I'm guessing there's a story there about not having the not invented HEAR syndrome, but I've never actually heard it. Do you guys know the story of that?

Lubos Kocman (00:22:18):
That's way you know, back to the story. I joined Susa like 40 years ago,

Jonathan Bennett (00:22:22):

Douglas DeMaio (00:22:23):
Okay, I, I know this story happened, but I wasn't with the, I wasn't with the company then, but

Jonathan Bennett (00:22:30):
So what they

Lubos Kocman (00:22:30):
Should would know

Jonathan Bennett (00:22:32):
Are, are either of you d involved with the ongoing RPM development? Because there, there's some interesting things coming down the pike for RPM itself.

Lubos Kocman (00:22:39):
So I have to oversee basically any package, any package change coming to the distribution. I'm not really focusing on one or the other package. For me, it would be probably like distribution images and other stuff that's, that's more relevant to, to what I would be doing.

Jonathan Bennett (00:22:55):
All right. So the, the big change that I see and this, this has caught my eyes because I'm talking to you guys, because when you go into the RPM source you can see the, of course, the pulled request and you get to see who it is that's writing the code. And RPM just had added to IT support for micro architectures. So, you know, the, the different players in the industry have put their heads together and said, okay, these are the processor features that make an X 86 64 V two, these are the processor features that make an X 86, 64 V three, you know, and it's things like support for IMAX and AVX five 12 is one of the things for v4 actually. RPM now has the ability to differentiate between those, and from what I understand, deliver, you know, the version number to your install that your machine supports, and that, that seems pretty interesting. But the guys that wrote the patches have the openSUSE badge that they, they work for Open Souse. So is, is this a feature that's coming to one of the openSUSE distros?

Lubos Kocman (00:24:02):
So should I cover that deck or

Douglas DeMaio (00:24:04):
Absolutely. You know, a lot more about it. I can add a little bit,

Lubos Kocman (00:24:07):
But yeah, I can, I can give you like the background. I'm not sure about the usage of that particle feature. Okay. But I can tell you, I can summarize like what we've had as an issue and what we came up with as a solution. So there was that amazing idea for our next generation product portfolio that we would get the most out of the current CPUs, right? Well, second most, we wouldn't go for v4, but the idea will say, let's go for v3, right? And that was basically that was communicated to community. And then that was huge amount of pushback, right? Because you have to suffer communities. That's possible.

Jonathan Bennett (00:24:43):
World machine.

Lubos Kocman (00:24:44):
Yeah, exactly. Hospital, and you actually, everything that I have on the desk would, would be running it. But you can imagine the pushback, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then we were actually looking into, okay, so, so what are the alternatives? How can we still deliver like the most that we can, right? But like supporting as much hardware as we can. And and we've considered v2 as the base level basically to actually support something new, but that would still cost us some of the hardware, right? And there was still a Bush bag. And then in the end, we've actually decided to stay on the, well, at least as far as MVI goes, openSUSE not, not necessarily SUSE's new products, but Virgos, we've decided to keep the current base architectural level, get rid of the 32 bit Intel, like the I 3 86 i i 5 86 from the main distribution make it, we call it ports secondary architecture.

So it's built separately, doesn't block belts for the primary architectures, which is rman intel. And we actually decided to go for for HV caps which is basically building that particle library, right, with the optimization while leaving the physical rest of the packages and distribution in in Tecta. And we could maybe even offer DH V cups for v4. So this is the direction where we decided to go for with tumble VT for help. I'm not sure. I think that the last news that I've heard was that it'll be V2 by default may change. We are still in the prototype phase, right? Have we went from V3 to v2, now Tumbleweed is going for basically V zero plus HV caps. So I can imagine how the HV caps actually is one of the reasons why actually we want the feature in, right? So you can actually, we can deliver the latest one maybe for v4 in my case for example, here. Yeah. That it was, it was very spicy topic. You can imagine the pushback on the mailing lists, <laugh>, Hey, what about my hardware? Right? Yeah.

Jonathan Bennett (00:26:40):
Yeah. So I've, I've got a pair servers done in a data center in Dallas, and with the latest release of CTOs, Rocky, all of all of Red Hat stuff, one of the servers now will not run the latest re binaries because it just old enough, it's an AM MD and it's just v2. It's still, yeah, I think it's v2. So it doesn't, it doesn't quite support v2. And I discovered that the hard way <laugh> went to migrate a VM over to it, and the VM just stopped <laugh>, you start, start digging into it, it's like, ah, that's a pain, because it's still good hardware. So I can imagine people being frustrated over that <laugh>,

Lubos Kocman (00:27:18):
That's one of the differences that I see we did really actually took the hard way, you know, like announce the proposal and then, then actually take all the input. And that was, it was painful, but I think that we did the best possible how would you call it? Compromise to actually deliver what's task and still make people happy.

Douglas DeMaio (00:27:37):
Yes. There was a, there was a good hundred 50 comments on that on the mailing list. Yeah,

Lubos Kocman (00:27:41):
It was, yeah,

Douglas DeMaio (00:27:42):
It was constant. It was like back and forth and

Lubos Kocman (00:27:45):
People actually showing data, you are not going to get as much as you believe and so on and so on. Yeah.

Jonathan Bennett (00:27:51):
You only got 150 angry comments. That's rookie numbers, <laugh>,

Douglas DeMaio (00:27:55):

Lubos Kocman (00:27:56):
But we are talking about like core contributor group, right? We are not talking about actually literally talking the internal, internal mailing list of the close com, you know, close community.

Jonathan Bennett (00:28:07):
Oh, okay. Okay. 150 angry comments from your actual developers. Okay. That's quite a few <laugh>. Yes.

Lubos Kocman (00:28:12):
Which is pretty much, maybe a little bit more than that. Yeah.

Jonathan Bennett (00:28:16):
<Laugh>. Yes. so I'm curious, and it seems, it seems on topic since we're talking about architectures what mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, what about some of the other less mainstream, maybe soon to be mainstream architectures is there a risk five distro or a install for any of the Open Souse products? And then what about some of the others like power and oh Lord, help you if you have to, but MIPS and some of those things.

Lubos Kocman (00:28:42):
I can doc, you, me, it's up to

Douglas DeMaio (00:28:44):
You. Yeah, go ahead. I mean, go ahead. I mean, R five is going along, but, you know, go ahead.

Lubos Kocman (00:28:51):
Yeah, so I believe that actually that that was considered to be one of the primary architectures for up later in the release. Or maybe in one of the newer versions, not in the initial release, but it's definitely on the radar, right? In o b osv, you can already build for risk five. I know that universities are actually quite happy for it. I've seen several, I have even one of the risk five stickers for my laptop because some people were really just happy with what they can do in os and that makes me happy that universities actually use BS for this reason. Yes. less so, SL is actually built for Intel, you know power S three 90 arm, and LI actually took it a little bit further because we want to again support some of the commodity hardware.

So we are even supporting 32 Bit arm, which is not, which is not supported on sl, and we are still supporting S3 90 and everything in leap. So that's it. It, it was an effort. We actually had to decouple it from the main distribution because we were not able to get R B seven spinning as fast as rest of the arches, for example. It was quite pain. But again, we were listening to users, we wanted to make sure that we do not let anybody down, and it cost us quite a lot of effort. Risk five is under radar, but it's not part of any basically main distribution. But you can still build an o bs for, for risk five, but I would say the change is with hardware, right? Once we will have decent builders for decent prices like you, you know, it's going to be much better,

Jonathan Bennett (00:30:19):
Right? So that, that was what I was just gonna say. One of the, one of the problems with doing risk five at this point, as, as a distro, is there's just not hardware out there for it yet. There, there's a few places that are making it, and the prices are starting to come down. In fact, I should have my first Risk five board showing up later today, and I'm actually pretty excited to go start playing with that. It's one of the vision five Mark twos, and they finally shifted after the Kickstarter. I don't remember what distro they've put together with that. It's one that, it's, it's not, it's not Fedora. So I'm gonna <laugh> it's gonna be outside my comfort zone.

Douglas DeMaio (00:30:54):
I know this Star five actually is works quite a bit with some people within Open Suza. And so, I mean, it could very well be, I mean, we're in communication with them constantly. Sure, sure.

Jonathan Bennett (00:31:05):
Yeah, that's, that's neat. It's, it's fun to see kind of the, the Linux world, the open source world as we have started to embrace this new isa, this new platform. And I think there'll be some, some real fun things come out of that and some of the other platforms that are out there. It's just, it's just good to see everything moving forwards that way.

Lubos Kocman (00:31:27):
I'm really looking for anything from Pine 64 or at risk five other than Pinesol, which, you know, you can't really fully fledge distro on it, but mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah, I'm really excited.

Jonathan Bennett (00:31:37):
Yeah. pine 64, I think at one point our Arduino was talking about putting something out that was risk five two, and I don't remember if that ever happened. But we'll, we will really know that we've made it when the Raspberry Pie Foundation puts out something that's risk five <laugh>. Yeah.

Doc Searls (00:31:55):
Well, I wanna cut in here and and pivot to another topic, but I'm gonna tease that and for now, say that this episode of Floss Weekly is brought to you by Barracuda. In a recent email trend survey, 43% of respondents said they had been victims of a spearfishing attack, but only 23% said that they have dedicated spearfishing protection. How are you keeping your email secure? Barracuda has identified 13 types of email threats and how cyber criminals use them every day. Fishing, conversation hacking, ransomware plus 10 more tricks, cyber criminals use to steal money from your company or personal information from your employees and customers. Are you protected against all 13 types? Email Cyber crime is becoming more sophisticated and attacks are more difficult to prevent tax use. Social engineering, including urgency and fear to prey in victims. Social engineering attacks, including spearfishing and business email compromise cost businesses and average of $130,000 per incident as demand for COVID 19 tests increased at the start of 2022, Barracuda researchers saw an increase in Covid 19 test related phishing attacks increase by 521% between October and January as public interest rises.

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And people with Barracuda find out about the 13 email threat types you need to know about and how Barracuda can provide complete email protection for your teams, your customers, and your reputation. Get your free ebook,, that's Barracuda your journey secured. Okay, so I wanted to ask, and I have to go to a different, yeah. Okay. So an interesting thing to me is that, and I mentioned earlier the Novell acquisition, and I, I, I said that, that SUSE acquired Novell was actually the other way around, and the history there is kind of wild. And actually Linux Journal was a SUSE house for some of its early years when we were still in Seattle. And we were Debbie in house, we moved around, but SUSE was a favorite of ours. And then there's this Novell acquisition, and then if I look through Wikipedia, that was a, a Nove was acquired by Attach Mate attachment, like Microfocus went with Microfocus International that was acquired by Open Attic, and then there was an acquisition of HPE e Open Stack and Stack Hato.

 And h HPE was Hewlett, Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Then there was a sale to EQT Partners and then an acquisition by Rancher Labs. I didn't actually know about all this. I didn't pay any attention to it <laugh>, but all these things happened, and there was an an I P O and, and then there was this acquisition by New Vector. And the interesting thing to me is that it's, it's a half billion dollar company, <laugh> Associates, and it, it has survived as an identity through all of those things. I mean, who, remember who remembers Novell anymore? Who remembers Attach Mate, or half of those things that were way back when

Douglas DeMaio (00:36:27):
I, I, I lived quite through most of that except the Novell acquisition. <Laugh>.

Doc Searls (00:36:34):
Yeah. And, and so it's interesting to me that, that I mean, the only thing I noticed is that it went from having the lowercase u <laugh> to the uppercase U <laugh>. Like nobody bothered to explain that anymore, you know? And the gecko is still there. Right. You know, so it's like, it's, it's, it's sort of interesting to live through all that and, and yet it's sort of like the buoyancy of the identity that is SUSE has stayed at the top of that <laugh>. So I, tell me a little bit about living through all that or what that actually means. It may mean nothing really, I don't know, but to me it's, it's the durability of a brand as it were to look at it in marketing terms.

Lubos Kocman (00:37:16):
I live it to Dak for, it was Piece five, joined basically under a micro focus, therefore mean one, one acquisition by equity. Yeah. <laugh>.

Douglas DeMaio (00:37:25):
So, interesting enough, I live with an, well, I, I live next to another American, like, who started out with Suza, like, I think he was like employee number 50 or something, something like that, you know, and he lived through a lot of that. He actually went to Canonical, came back. But I, I got a lot of stories from him and I mean, it really is, yeah. I mean, it started out as a, as a, basically doing translations, student documentation. And that's kind of where it grew from. And it has been resistant, and I guess, you know, with a good product, you just can't kill it. Right. it just keeps having, keeps going on and, and you know, the, the whole Novell thing happened. I, I heard stories, you know, that, that, that that they flew in here and and of course they, they came to Nuremberg and it was, it was rather what was it?

It, it was kind of like at a prime point where they really needed to sell. And then I think the rest, from that point on, it was sort of like it, it was just pure margins I think is kind of how like they ended up getting purchased. That was the whole attach mate. And then moving on to Microfocus, you know, and just they became like sectioned off as, as business business units in, in including up to the point where when we were with Microfocus, like Novell was made a business unit and was also so was attach mate. So but the acquisitions that kind of went from there were well, what was it? The E Q T, I mean, it was more of a, we became like, how did that work? I guess the fund, right?

We were, we were a fund, we were part of a, think of a mutual fund, and we were fund number eight as far as I remember. And, and then of course, you know, new leadership kind of came in and then and then they went to the so was floated around on the stock market from what I could tell. And and then landed on Frankfurt Exchange. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, but it was, it, it's, we had the founders actually, one of the founders still works for the company yep. And you would go outside and hang out with him. It's just a, it's a very unique company, I'll just say that.

Jonathan Bennett (00:40:04):
Yeah. So <laugh>, right? For Hackaday, and I've been there for a couple of years now, and we've kind of gone through the same thing, been been sold and bought a couple of times and you know, we're now under Siemens technically, and that was a little nerve wracking when that happened, but we've kind of got the same thing going on. It's enough of a brand, and we do well enough that they've just left us alone, which has been really nice. But it's, it does, it speaks well to what Open Suza is and is all about that even the corporate overlords are just like, let's, let's not mess with the geeks. Let, let's let them do their thing. They're doing good work there. We need to let 'em do it. <Laugh>.

Lubos Kocman (00:40:43):
That's true. By the way, maybe one correction because Doug actually mentioned it, he mentioned <inaudible> and he mentioned ranch, whatever, actually done acquisitions by Susan. Right? Not that they would purchase us just to correct it.

Jonathan Bennett (00:40:59):
All right, well, I wanna dig into, unless Doc has another follow up. No, no, no. Go for it. Follow up. He's the boss. All right. I wanna dig into Tumbleweed cuz I'm not very familiar with Tumbleweed and it reminds me a lot of raw hide over on the Fedora side and Raw Hyde Eats babies and I don't think Tumbleweed is supposed to eat babies. Is it <laugh>?

Lubos Kocman (00:41:18):
It's not. The difference is open QA really, like, I feel like that's the main difference, right? Roha is roja, basically you build it, it's there, you can consume it. Here we actually have gatekeeping, right? So as I've mentioned before anything actually gets accepted in factory, there is several reviews. One, you know, in development projects. So actually group around the packages, like see Python developers, they have to be okay with a change. And we kind of submit it for factory. Let's try to include it in Tumbleweed. Factor is sort of our, it's tumbleweed that was that yet didn't pass testing, let's call it this way. Okay, so it's before

Jonathan Bennett (00:41:51):
It's the beta branch of Tumbleweed?

Lubos Kocman (00:41:54):
No, it's, it's the same let's say, and whatever pass is testing from Factory actually ends up in Tumble. Okay. Factory would be like the development project below Tumbleweed. Cool. So I would say that's the main difference really. Like you should probably compare ROH more to Factory, but like BLE is distribution that went, that are actually not identified as breaking our system made in, and it's, it's thousands and thousands of tests being executed on top of each. So that's the main difference, right? Sure.

Jonathan Bennett (00:42:27):
So it, go ahead.

Douglas DeMaio (00:42:29):
So tumble, we'd actually started out Greg k is one of the developers and he used to work for Susa and he actually came up with the idea Tumbleweed where he he basically was trying to, you know, put it in the latest colonel and I mean, he, he had his ideas that it was supposed to be like a rolling colonel and then ultimately what we, what we determined, like he, he, he went on to work for the Lennox Foundation and, and we actually asked him if we could retake that name because we figured out that to be able to move one thing, like to move one thing, you have to be able to move everything. And that is kind of like really where Tumbleweed is really excelled because we've, we've figured out that process, we've figured out how to make that happen. And then with Open QA being sort of a, yep, I guess a inhibitor or something, it, it, it's basically what allows us to, to roll as quickly as we can. And I think we had a recently had a streak of, I don't know, we must have gone on like 70 straight snapshots or something like that. So,

Jonathan Bennett (00:43:38):
Yeah. So I, I was gonna ask how close, how Bleeding Edge Tumbleweed is, but you guys have kind of d have Doven, David, you've dived, you've dived into that a little bit. But I mean, is, so like, let's just say, let's just take the kernel. What generally is that lag time between, you know, ALDs and Greg say, all right, this kernel is out it's released, so we're gonna get another one. What, in a week and a half? How long does it take for that, that minted kernel to show up in Tumbleweed?

Douglas DeMaio (00:44:07):
So I do a lot of the

Lubos Kocman (00:44:08):
Coverages testing, right? Yeah. Go for Doc. Sorry.

Douglas DeMaio (00:44:12):
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, I, I'm the one that tends to write all the, I don't know, weekly blogs on, on Tumbleweed and and you see it kind of come in, but my experiences over the years, you, it depends like how, I mean obviously it's gonna vary and where Linus might be on the you know, on, on the rc and then like as he transfers on as let's say he works on a, on a new, a major version or something like that, like that might be something that might cause some bit of lag time between say him passing it off to Greg or, or any of the other Kernel developers. But, but I would say I've seen it where the RC kind of gets released and it comes right into Tumbleweed within like 24 hours. So it's, it's, it really depends though. It could take like a week, not much more though than a week though. You really see that

Jonathan Bennett (00:45:08):
Is Tumbleweed run RC Colonels as opposed to waiting, waiting for the official release of them?

Douglas DeMaio (00:45:14):
It, well,

Jonathan Bennett (00:45:15):
Cable release, I suppose

Douglas DeMaio (00:45:17):
You, you have varying you have varying, you have varying lts kernels and you have varying RC kernels. And I actually, I'd have, I'd really have to go to the, to the website to see, but Linus usually touches that very top and then kind of passes along, at least from what I've seen. And so when he gets it to a point where he is fine, then you know, there's still some RRCs, but like, it's, it's not a, it's not, it's not considered stable, you know, by any means. Right? Right. But it functions and yeah,

Lubos Kocman (00:45:53):
Also keep in mind that there could be a big of like also caused by other packages, right? Sometimes we can produce, I don't know, seven builds in a week or seven builds as, as in we have a new distribution bill that we published users, and sometimes we may do just one a week because there is just some ongoing issue that we have to resolve, right? Like maybe issues with, I dunno, latest G here update or so on, and therefore there could be delayed, not caused by the maintainer, wasn't quick enough. But, you know, some overall situation of what's incoming, what are the incoming changes for the distro right now at the moment? That could have few days, for example.

Jonathan Bennett (00:46:28):
And so I assume Tumbleweed is because it's so up to date, it's got all of the new desktop toys. So you you can run, you can run Wayland, you can run pipe wire, it's got the wire guard packages, all, all of that stuff is there if somebody wants a really up-to-date desktop.

Lubos Kocman (00:46:44):
Yes, correct. Huh? Also we have a very nice road that basically anything that ends up in any SUSE product or leave for example as well, which is sort of opens the project, right, has to go to tumble with first because factory, right? As, as opposed to the development project. But that's the rule. So you know that there'll be all the features that products and nice because you know that everything will go eventually upstream.

Douglas DeMaio (00:47:13):
And, and what what does happen though, you'll, you'll see like for example, kb Jonathan Riddle he'll, you know, he, he, we were at Academy one year and of course he came up, he said, you know, I really appreciate you guys with open Q because like we're able to catch some things and then pass along up streaming. So I mean, if, if they have their tests built for open qa, then it just allows their release to, to be tested more quickly and, and get that new release out the door. And, and we do, and occasionally you do see some rcs enter into Tumbleweed but by that time it's usually like RC two or RC three, and then, you know, next thing you know, you have the new major version or whatnot. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Doc Searls (00:48:02):
So I want to jump into something about trade shows, because I know you guys just came from one and and we just had a million Reich from scale on last week, and it's a big important part of the, of the whole thing. But first, I've let everybody know that joining Club TWiT is another great way to support our network as a member. You'll get access to ad-free versions of all the shows on twit, as well as other great benefits. There's a bonus TWiT plus feed, which includes footage and discussions that didn't make the final show edit, as well as bonus shows we've started such as HandsOn, Mac, hands-on Windows, ask me anything. And fireside chat with some of your favorite TWiT guest and cohost as Floss Weekly listeners. You may also be interested in checking out another Club TWiT exclusive show, the Untitled Linox Show, hosted by our own Jonathan Bennett. So sign up to join Club TWiT for just $7 a month. Head over to twit tv slash Club TWiT and join today. So you guys just came from a fod and I, I mentioned we had scale on what first, what'd you get there? And and how important are trade shows in general now? Because they've gone through a lot of changes over the years in the whole ecosystem. Where do they fit?

Douglas DeMaio (00:49:21):
So, so yeah, I guess I'll go ahead and start that. Luba and I did have Shada, well, we've, I'll, I'll leave that another time. We had, we, of course we had some beers but <laugh>, but it's so FOM is quite different. And it's not necessarily a trade show, it's, it's just, it's the biggest open source event at least that I've ever been to or ever seen. And it's all community driven, so you're not gonna have any companies there or anything like that. It's all projects, projects and people that have released projects under, you know, the various license, open source licenses that are there it is important to be there because that's where a lot of important conversations take place. A lot of development takes place there and you'll see a lot of bugs get patched or just, well, even ideas expanded upon.

 And then if you look at the events that surround that, I mean, you can have, sorry, you can have companies that sponsor it, but they don't, they're not gonna have a table there, you know, I mean, Santos will be there, but that's not gonna be Red Hat there, right? Opensuse is gonna be there. It's not gonna be Susa but anyway, the you'll have like Google summer of code, they'll have some sort of meetup that takes place there. You'll have trainings that happen along the way. There's also a very good configuration management camp that happens a couple days afterward. So, so I mean, Brussels during this time, roughly around the time of the Super Bowl, is just the place that you want to be if you're an open source developer to see as many talks as you can get get on the latest get the latest knowledge about what's changing within projects or what direction they're heading in. And then going back to scale you know, Elon great, great person. I, I really appreciate scale. We have a good community in Los Angeles there, or Southern California that, that helps with the booth. I've been there several times and I really do enjoy it when I do get back home and hang with them, but unfortunately I won't be able to be there this year. <Laugh>.

Doc Searls (00:51:44):
Yeah. I'm not gonna be there this time. It, it, it's, it's an un <laugh> I'm gonna break my record for not being there every time. I think next year I'll make it though. There's always something coming up and I'm, I live in Southern California much of the time. Yeah, so Jonathan, will you, did you do something there? I, I'm not sure if you did or not. If not, I go

Jonathan Bennett (00:52:04):
So I've got a, I've got a couple other things I wanted to ask about, but first off, what is, what is Adaptable Linux? I've seen that kind of platform say the, yeah, the adaptable Linux platform. What, what is that about

Lubos Kocman (00:52:17):
Me or UACs

Douglas DeMaio (00:52:19):
Me, right? Yes. That's all you, yeah. <Laugh>,

Lubos Kocman (00:52:23):
It's so right now it's a platform, right? It's, it's something that SUSE experiments with it's currently still in the prototype phase. Yeah, I think that we had already, we are going to have thread prototype probably within a month for a similar, maybe maybe two. And I guess like to people who are sort of familiar with openSUSE, I would say it's a way of prototyzing the concept that was developed with Micross, right? That's the immutable distribution, the thread one, you know, most installed out of whatever open source project offers. And it's basically we already had similar experiments or, or even successful products called Three Micro, which is basically very small host. It's really focused to be container and VM host, right? It's immutable. So you, we are using transactional updates. You are always updating the BT r f snapshot and I guess up is basically a recode code stream refresh of slash right?

But using the concept and the way how distribution looks like that, that's sort of adapted from Micros. Cause as you know, slash 15 is aging right? For enterprises that may be a good thing. We are, we are providing support for next, I dunno, 15, 20 years, but there are needs to actually have updated code stream like Neuro Python and Neuro Ruby. And the Yelp is basically take on that, but done a little bit differently. I think it's, it's quite actually brave you know, to be innovative in this. And the differences are, you know, if I, if I can maybe mention like what's the plan for desktop, at least based on the current prototype state, like we, we would like to run like Contentized, G D M and including the session in the content container on top of our right. So that's basically separating the basos from, from any sort of workloads, be <inaudible> container runtime beat VMs that are running on top of.

And there are fundamental differences such as, yes, you all know it, right? It's the famous tool from, from tro people, like use it simple. And even that if you trigger yes from Chma line, ISS actually a spawning container on the background and therefore, you know, you are actually really, you are sort of erasing that level from the user. He doesn't even know that it's containerized, but it is. So it's, it's quite, quite cool concept. You know, we are still early. Some stuff may change, but I think it's, it's something to really definitely watch if you are interested in, in that area. Era of immutable distributions could be silver, blue, and fedora, sort of, they just have different take on it through OS three, right? We are using, but refu we are actually relying on snapshots from it. So it's really tied. You cannot really use our immutable systems with like X or any other file system than <inaudible>. Mainly, I would say if you would ask who, who should be using it is really people who are going to run VMs containerized workflows and so on. But we also plan to have desktop there, right? Just like Micros, they have desktop as well. Micros is desktop is utilizing s which is also quite new, I would say, for mostly mainstream distributions, like by default, right? To install it. And you have flat there and I believe mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.

Doc Searls (00:55:36):
Yeah, I, I, I have a, and we talked about this a little bit before the show, but I'd like to bring sure the, the audience in on this too. Today's an interesting day because Microsoft, which was very involved in Che, G P T and oh, and open ai basically integrated open ai chat, G p t with Bing, its search engine. They wanted you to ask it questions, not make, not make search queries so much. And at the same time, Google's competing, they have something called Bard, I think, and, and they're kind of leaning in the same direction of the user interface. Doesn't look any different yet. You ask it a question, you're gonna get very kind of O G B T kind of answers. And I think given the degree to which search engines are, are window into the web, that this changes the web itself.

And, and what I'm, what worries me and the, and the open source angle to this is we don't know what's going on inside these machines. We had some idea of what was going on with the search engine. They index the entire web, you know, something like page ranked that, that, that ranks results and so forth. That has changed a lot over the years, but our experience of it is kind of like going to a library and looking through the stacks, and you look through the card catalog and you find something there, but you go to original things, you're not getting an answer. You're getting, you're getting connections to the actual sources, and the sources seem farther away. And this is an open source show. So I'm wondering what the connections there might be, or if you guys have thought much about that.

Douglas DeMaio (00:57:08):
Yeah, well, I mean, as we kind of were discussing earlier, like you have to, it has to be verifiable, right? Like you can, you can be given information, but you really need to, to check it out to make sure that it's correct. I mean, I think some of us have spouses might, <laugh> might know that <laugh>

Doc Searls (00:57:30):
They half trust and verify

Douglas DeMaio (00:57:32):
<Laugh>. <Laugh>. Exactly. But, but yeah, so I think it is rather important that, that that remains because once that, if that, if you're consuming closed sources, right? In a sense like this with the, with the ai, I mean, who knows where that world's gonna go? It, it sounds pretty dangerous and probably I'm sure that we can make a new movie about that

Jonathan Bennett (00:57:59):
<Laugh>. I, I kind of see what Bing is doing in particular as instead of looking through the card stacks, the card catalog, you're now asking the librarian. And the nice thing is, so far they still give you the option of going and saying, Hey, librarians, show me the book where you got that answer. But one of the things we were talking about before the show is if that ever gets taken away, you're potentially in a really bad place, is you then have to trust the librarian. And, you know, with, with the AI things going on right now, there's some real interesting things going on with that. The, the, the fun folks over at Reddit, for example, with the actual chat G P T program, have figured out a way to jailbreak it. And it, there's a, there is a prompt you can give chat g p t to say, essentially, I want you to pretend that you're a different character and give me answers without using any of your pre-programmed rules. And so you can then get chat G p t to actually speak off the record as it were and give you the real answers, which is just mind blowing

Doc Searls (00:59:01):
With profanities and everything, right? It's

Jonathan Bennett (00:59:04):
<Laugh>, yes, yes. All of that. But there's some, there's some other interesting angles for open source. And I think particularly of what GitHub is doing with co-pilot and some of the questions around that, and I think hasn't openSUSE just yep. Just brought out some

Lubos Kocman (00:59:20):
Guidance that yes, we not openSUSE about SUSE in general. And I would say just like with maybe news documentation, and if you are actually like using it as learning material for whatever the bot is going to tell you, you have to, you know, you need to make sure that the license of maybe the article or the documentation that it's actually using is still being respected, right? Let's say that somebody uses creative comments and they want attribution, and the bot actually doesn't do that, right? It gives you inter information from some article which, and then breaks the attribution aspect of it. And we have the same issue with code, right? We have to make sure that the that the AI is actually really respecting the licenses and copyrights from the training material and with co-pilot you know, there were some courses where that wasn't the case, right?

So suse actually for now, for we are refreshing the policy, which is sort of providing guidance to our employees and also, you know, maybe partners if they want to use it is saying that we shouldn't use it at the moment not until the next revision. Maybe we'll have new solutions that are popping, like AWS is coming with something as far right, I believe it's called Code Whisperer. Maybe that could be a good candidate. But for now, time being until probably next review in December, like we are actually telling employees not to use any of the code, you know, in any of our products, period.

Doc Searls (01:00:45):
Well guys, we are actually at the, we're out of time here. Usually you give a little warning. We're running out of time. We actually are out of time. Sure. we always end with a a couple of simple questions for both of you, so we'll take a little more time. What are your favorite text editor and scripting language?

Lubos Kocman (01:01:02):
<Laugh>? Doug, you want to start on me?

Douglas DeMaio (01:01:05):
I'm Mark down. Mark down. And she had it, so I'm like own user, but that would, that would be mine. <Laugh>,

Lubos Kocman (01:01:17):
Like Susan is very specific. Like you, like o b s is probably down out of, you know, five different languages, right? So if you want to contribute to such project, like you, it will give you a hard time. But for me it would be, I really used to have sublime text. If you, if you, if you know the editor closest, like free alternative would be ato, but otherwise Vem, right? Anywhere where I have terminal console it, it would be Vem all the way and language prototype.

Doc Searls (01:01:46):
Well, this is great. That's great. Yeah. so th this has been great and an an awesome progress report. I'm really glad we got it. And we're gonna have to have one or both of you guys back again to tell us what it's, what's gone down in the next six months, year, whatever it takes, because it's not gonna stop. It's a lot of, lot of great responses to questions here, so thanks a lot guys.

Douglas DeMaio (01:02:10):
Thank you for having us. I

Lubos Kocman (01:02:12):
Hope. Thank you.

Doc Searls (01:02:15):
So, Jonathan, you have some great questions there. I gotta say

Jonathan Bennett (01:02:19):
It, it kind of helps that Lennox is my thing and they mainly do Lennox Distros. Yeah, I'm kind of inside baseball on that one. But that was, that was great. It was a lot of fun to talk to 'em and hopefully we didn't, hopefully we hit the, the right level of nerding out because we did a little bit but not too much <laugh> for our audience.

Doc Searls (01:02:37):
I, I'm, I'm half muggle, <laugh>, we're probably more than half muggle, but just a, a bit of wizard. So does your, I I'm curious, did your, your server in the rack or somewhere, wherever it is in, in in Dallas, did that survive? I mean whatever you had to do with that?

Jonathan Bennett (01:02:55):
Yeah, so it is running the previous version of of Santo, of Rocky Lennox now. And I've got my individual VMs set to they're all running the previous version too. That way I can migrate 'em back and forth. That's the whole point of having the two machines to be able to do live migrations to reboot one for security issues or what have you. So yeah, for now it's, it's hanging on, but I will eventually have to come up with something, either replace some hardware or move to a different distro, which it sounds like a huge pain

Doc Searls (01:03:24):
<Laugh>. So that is hardware in a, in Iraq, in, in, in a place, a physical thing that you pay attention to? Yes,

Jonathan Bennett (01:03:31):
Yes. I'm just paranoid enough that I don't want to do everything on the cloud because the cloud is just somebody else's hardware.

Doc Searls (01:03:40):
Yeah, man. And I, I, I made, I made the move from a Rackspace rack to a Rackspace cloud, and I'm paying for it, I gotta say. So that's

Jonathan Bennett (01:03:51):
How long, how long has those emails been missing now?

Doc Searls (01:03:53):
<Laugh> since December 5th, since December. Now I haven't, to be fair, I haven't called them up because I wanted to wait until the dust settled and I'm still paying them. So I, I should get some good service out of that. But all my imap is, is, is not belonged to us right now, <laugh>, it's somewhere, it's somewhere else. So we'll see what happens with that. Goodness. And many years of great experience with them, when that, when I had a thing in Iraq and then for a long time in a cloud too, but the cloud got attacked and a lot of us are victims and so, yeah, well

Jonathan Bennett (01:04:26):
The, the, the great advantage of having a thing in Iraq, the great advantage and disadvantage is when something goes wrong, it was your fault,

Doc Searls (01:04:33):
<Laugh>. I know that's true. You know, and they warned me for a long time saying something's gonna go wrong with that thing. It's very old, you know, and I, yeah, you know, and I had some backup on it for a while, but but finally got out of it thinking that the cloud itself is backup and it was not. So. Wow. And I should have done some of my own. I I owned some of that too. Anyway, so next week, and I'm looking here at j John Abey co Intelligence Institute and community is going to be on I hope they pronounce that right, Abe, A b e a b b e stays low in the alphabet there. So <laugh> has the advantage of being at the beginning of the alphabet voice. I'm being an ass some toward the end. I'm used to that. Anyway, this has been great. Thanks a lot, Jonathan. Yep, thanks. Thanks, thanks for the guys and and we will see you all next week.

Ant Pruitt  (01:05:29):
Hey folks, I'm Aut Pruitt and what do you get your favorite techie that has everything, A Club TWiT gift subscription, of course, twit podcasts keep them informed and entertained with the most relevant tech news podcasts available With the Club TWiT subscription, they get access to all of our podcasts ad free. They also get access to our members-only Discord, access to exclusive outtakes behind the scenes and special contents such as AMAs, which I just love hosting. Plus exclusive shows such as End Zone, Mac, end Zone Windows, and the Untitled Linux Show Purchase Your Geeks gift at TWiT. And it will Thank you every day.


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