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Windows Weekly 359
Leo LaPorte: It’s time for Windows weekly. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley are here, its official. Come Friday, Microsoft takes Nokia and you won't believe what's about to happen. It's next on Windows weekly.
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Leo: This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley. Episode 359 recorded April 23, 2014
Microsoft Mobile Oy!
Windows weekly is brought to you by Linda.com. Learn what you want when you want with access to over 2400 high-quality online courses and training videos all for one low monthly price. Try it free for seven days. Visit Linda.com/windows and by ShareFile, enhance your work flow send files of almost any size easily and securely with share file by Citrix. Try share file today for a 30 day free trial go to share file.com. Click the microphone and enter Windows It's time for Windows weekly, time to talk about Microsoft the most exciting company in technology today and with us to do that the two people who wisely, many years ago chose Microsoft. It's been an up-and-down voyage.
Paul Thurrott: Leo have you ever seen the video with all the people pushing the thing in a circle and then eventually only Arnold Schwarzenegger is left?
Leo: Yes, that's you.
Paul: That’s us.
Leo: You and Mary Jo are there Arnold Schwarzenegger's…
Paul: That’s not so much a calling as it is a...
Leo: I've mentioned this before but 2013 was the most exciting year for Microsoft in a long time and 2014 is shaping up to be very similar and I think it's a good time. Paul Thurrott is here from the super site for Windows winsupersite.com. He's authored many books about Windows and Windows phone and so forth. And he's also an analyst for Penton Media and writes for Windows IT Pro magazine. Mary Jo Foley is found on the ZD network where she hosts rights posts and frequently stirs up the all about Microsoft blog allaboutmicrosoft.com and there are not too better people covering this subject in the world.
Paul: That’s what I would say.
Leo: That’s how I feel about it. I feel strongly that way. I'm constantly, constantly proud that we have you on our network. And I say that because Todd Clinton is sitting in here and I just want to make Todd Clinton jealous. That’s mean.
Mary Jo Foley: It is.
Leo: Yes it's really mean. Todd is the share point guy. I didn't know this but the SharePoint conference is going on in the city right now.
Leo: Isn’t it? Am I wrong?
Todd: It's VTEC.
Paul: So it's not the Microsoft SharePoint.
Leo: It’s somebody else's. Some other guys SharePoint. They all dress up. It's kind of fun. They all dress up like Clippie or other Microsoft characters.
Paul: Oh, it's that kind of conference.
Leo: It’s a con. Not a conference, it's a con. Nice to have you back in studio Todd. So if anybody has any SharePoint questions will just fire them off for Todd. I was a little perturbed somebody called the radio show and said, Microsoft is no longer going to provide updates for Windows 8.1 and I said what come on that's not true but apparently- explain to me Mary Jo because I saw this and then I went and looked at a blog on tech net and that said if you have Windows 8.1 – Windows 8.0 your’re cool - but if you have Windows 8.1 you've got to update it.
Mary Jo: there's a whole bunch of pieces to this post in this story but originally when Microsoft came out with an 8.1 update. They said we're going to give everybody 30 days to implement this and if you don't before the patch Tuesday that falls in May. You're not going to get any more updates or fixes so there was a lot of outcry especially among business users not so much consumers because most consumers have automatic updates so they're going to get it anyway.
Leo: Right it's a free update and you're going to get it anyway.
Mary Jo: Right. So businesses were like weight we need more time than that we can't test it that quickly. And even though Microsoft said you don't need to test that everything's going to just work - so now that they've given business customers who deployed through the WS US and system center an extra hundred plus days, so they don't have to deploy it until August now. You have to deploy it if you have someone on Windows 8.1. You have to move to Windows 8.1 update by that time or no more updates for you. I think that's enough time.
Leo: Is there a technical reason why they want to do this. What's the story?
Paul: This is the overlong part. When Microsoft services its operating systems they usually have some kind of the baseline that they build off of and in the old days this would have been a service pack.
Leo: You couldn't get updates if you didn't do XP service pack too right?
Paul: Yes, at some point. At least there might be different sets of updates for different versions, it becomes a servicing point. I think the problem with Windows 8.1 update is that people look at this as if it's a new version of Windows because it certainly does change things and all that stuff but really, all this is; is a set of updates delivered over Windows update just like any other updates and the OS version hasn't really changed. It's still Windows 8.1. This is now the baseline. So it's sort of the pre-requisite for future updates. So when you go to Windows update 60 days from now. If you haven't updated since today you'll get this first and then you'll just get the other updates.
Mary Jo: Right, it's cumulative, and a lot of people don't realize that.
Paul: I don't know if it's cumulative. Technically, but it's similar thematically, to how Microsoft updates Windows phone. They have these updates and their cumulative and there are some people out there on Windows phone eight update two, some on update three and so forth.
Leo: It happens this way with lots of things video games. You're not going to be able to apply the new update. If you haven't applied all the previous updates my Sony PlayStation. If you don't apply all the updates previously you can't do the new update.
Mary Jo: Everybody wanted to say your alarm is sounding… You aren't going to get an update. Technically, that is correct but without explaining the reason and how that affects…
Paul: Oh no that's correct. Microsoft hates businesses make no mistake about that.
Mary Jo: Right.
Paul: We cannot deny that fact. I've heard from people who are worried about this kind of thing and specifically through WSUS having time to do it having time to test it and so forth and being required to do this. They don't like the language of it but I don't see this as a huge difference.
Leo: I think you're right. I think this makes sense now. What's weird is if you're on Windows 8.08 you didn't do Windows 8.1 update then you're all right. So confusing!
Paul: Windows 8.1 is a little weird. Part of this is that – we’re really seen this with the new PCs all the new Lenovo PCs for example; already have update one at the baseline. It's import because, and I just did just this last weekend I brought my old ultra-book back to Windows 7, which is what it came with using the built-in cover a stuff and proceeded to go through the various updates to get it to Windows update 8.1. There are a lot of them. If you go to Windows 8 download all the junk and then go to 8.1 and then download and there's multiple reboots multiple prerequisites before you can even get to 8.1. There is just so this gives you a kind of the baseline to work off of.
Leo: it does give you the impression that there might be something going on with Windows 8.1 that is not going on with Windows 8.0. It is just puzzling to me.
Mary Jo: I bet it's also about developers. If you are writing an app for Windows 8.1. There is certain things you want to be able to count on happening. Now because of some of the changes that they made with Windows 8.1 you have to do certain things slightly different from how it would behave with Windows 8.0. So if you're a developer you want a baseline.
Leo: And because there is such a big difference in 8.1. They don't want to force people to go from 8.02 8.1 is that it because ideally you'd like everybody on 8.1 update one?
Paul: They can do that. Windows 8 is a business product it has a support lifecycle. Obviously they want people to upgrade and honestly, most people on Windows 8 should upgrade, but no they can't force them to do it.
Mary Jo: I think there's probably a difference too because… The way they rolled out Windows 8 through the App Store and then Windows 8.1 was an update so those are two very different ways of getting the operating system.
Paul: I think what you meant was the other way around.
Mary Jo: Yes, sorry I reversed that. So two very different sets of things going on in how businesses and consumers find and think about updating and look at those updates.
Paul: I can only imagine what most businesses thought of 8.1 in the sense of how it was delivered. Really crazy!
Leo: What they would want is to do it through Windows update instead of the App Store?
Paul: Obviously I'm sure they have their methods for doing all that kind of stuff. I think Microsoft was doing - oh, this is how people update us. They are used to this. It's fun so we’ll download a 4 GB OS update through the store and then everything will be fine. That's not what businesses are looking for.
Leo: I'm sorry this wasn't even on your list of things you wanted to talk about.
Paul: It’s a good thing to talk about actually.
Mary Jo: It is.
Leo: It got some attention. I wanted to make sure that I say the right thing on the radio show. Basically you guys are my advisors…
Paul: You know what happens on my website in particular I'm not sure about Mary Jo's. But I have a hard time going back past a certain amount of times of depending on how much I've written in the past week it's hard for me to remember what we did talk about last week. In this case because we're on a Wednesday there is probably stuff that happened on Thursday that I no longer can remember.
Leo: Welcome to my world Paul.
Paul: So if it happens the day after Windows weekly, the chances of it getting on next week's show are not good.
Leo: Imagine me. I do a couple of shows every day so I can never tell - I know we talked about it but did we talk about it last week.
Paul: Mary Jo and I talk about stuff and we e-mail with many people and I'm on twitter all day long. And I think I've talked about this - this topic has been discussed.
Leo: Now we can get to your list of official items.
Mary Jo: That was great for first one actually.
Paul: What comes next?
Mary Jo: Right, as soon as Microsoft launches a new version of Windows or Windows phone or any operating system. Everybody is already saying what is next. I haven't even tried this yet but what's next. Because they called this thing they launched at build Windows 8.1 update it made it sound like that was it. There was an update and the next thing is probably Windows 9 but sources have told us that is not the case and there is going to be another update probably around August and we don't know what they're going to call it. We don't know if they're going to call it Windows 8.1 update 2 or Windows 2 or how they're going to differentiate it from this first update, but they're definitely tracking towards having something around August. Again through the Windows update as the deliverable so out on a patch Tuesday probably and we think the new start menu may be part of what is in this update. And they showed that start menu just as a concept, a working concept during Build in early April in San Francisco. We don't know if that's exactly what this start menu is going to look like. We don't know if it's going to be optional or it's going to look different on touchscreen or PCs versus non-touchscreen. We don't know any of that right now. But there definitely is something coming around August and the reason is instead of going on the every 1 year cadence that they had established to be the new rule for Windows they are now trying to do something where they are saying to the development team go with seeing how much you can get done in this sprint in three or four months and at the end of that whatever you get done, we're going to ship that. That is a huge difference for Windows is built. I can't even explain how different that is. Instead of having the three-year here we're going to have this long plan. We're going to list out everything that is going to be on and if you don't make certain milestone dates that will get tossed. This is more of a race, a race to just get more functionality, more features, fixes out to customers, way faster.
Leo: Because of the web this has become a very common… Whoops, it looks as if we've lost Paul. Can someone get me Paul Thurrott, pronto? This is kind of the modern way of development thanks to the Internet and the Web is to ship early, break it, get input and iterate on top of it. There is a long different terms for this. So it sounds like Microsoft kind of acknowledging that that is the way that they are going to start doing Windows from now on. It has its pros and cons. It is fine for an app. When you are doing a platform stability is a high priority on a platform. Consistency and stability - so failing early breaking that iterating on it and improving it. That makes sense in an app. I don't know if it makes sense in a platform. This is going to be controversial.
Paul: I’m sorry, can Mary Jo explain what's happening after Windows 8.1? I missed pretty much all of that.
Mary Jo: I can give you the TLDR version. They are going to do Windows a lot faster and in more bite size pieces. So, my point was instead of this long planning process that they used to have with Windows even in the one-year timeframe that they were doing. More recently now they are going to be doing sprints.
Paul: I like it. I sort of take a message here to be that we are not going to adhere to some arbitrary schedule. Windows 8.1 taught us one year is a good amount of time or… Let’s put this stuff out. I think that is the thing that has changed. Remember back in January we were talking that Windows 9 would probably include various things they start menu and floating windows and so on and so forth. I think the thing that has changed since then is Terry Meyerson and his crew have looked at this and said what if we could do it faster? Why not do it faster?
Leo: Why hold onto it for two years?
Paul: I talked to him and I talked to Joe and I said, you guys were kind of cagey how you described it. You were saying these things would be delivered in the coming update to Windows 8.1 and they said yup. They said you didn't say when or what the update would be called and he was like yup. In the old days, we would take that to mean that you were worried it was going to be late. The more I talk to these guys and no one said this but the more it occurred to me just talking to them. I think they are thinking about whether they can deliver it more quickly.
Leo: It’ll be done when it's done, and we're not going to have an arbitrary schedule.
Paul: it's the same sort of thing with Windows 8.1; in old releases of that OS they would have all this social networking integration and whatever forms of integration in the OS. But as those services were upgraded Windows phone couldn't be updated back quickly. There was no way to push stuff out to users. So you kind of de-couple it from that kind of monolithic OS core and then you can update things more frequently.
Leo: That is an important distinction. So it is not agile in the sense that you're going to ship it break it… You're going to have a rock solid platform. You're not going to skimp on testing, but when it is done you will ship it, is that right?
Mary Jo: I’m sure there is going to be internal testing - they're not going to just say okay done, ready throw it…
Leo: Not going to say we don't have to test as much.
Mary Jo: No, I don't think that is going to happen. Although I'll tell you on Azure. I've talked to them about this and they are definitely in the mode of fail fast right now. There are like let's throw this out there and see in a day what people think of this feature isn't working is it not working because that is the cloud right. You can just always update those very easily. But on the operating system that’s a different thing because people download it and implement it the benefit breaks all your stuff, you're like, wait, what just happened?
Paul: That is the potential downside here because you can test things. All you want but once you get it into the hands of millions or tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people all of a sudden you see weird problems that did not crop up during testing. Getting a locally installed OS upgraded out the world becomes very difficult compared to upgrading an online service. So we'll see how it goes. This is kind of new territory for us.
Mary Jo: It’s a whole new world.
Leo: By the way, I will mention I know people are right now saying there is noise in Paul's feed. We know that and we're working on it. I don't think it is so bad though.
Paul: I’m hoping it'll be fixed by next week.
Leo: So don't worry, we do know about that. While we try not to do that remember we're making this up as we go along.
Paul: What did Mary Jo just say? I am fading fast.
Mary Jo: You are failing fast and reiterating. So that is very interesting and it's also going to be interesting to see what falls into which kind of bundle. My sources are saying yes start menu might be in this it is not definite that it is going to be in update 2 but the thing that is even less likely to make it into this update is that idea of having Metro style apps in floating windows. That was something else they showed at build but that may take a little longer than three months or so. So I think that's is something that still might go into a future update if there is yet another one or Windows 9, which as far as we know this still spring 2015.
Paul: One of the things I've heard from many people and this is understandable, but it also kind of betrays a lot of understanding of how things work on that kind of Microsoft side is - third party companies like Star Dock can create these utilities that add these features that Microsoft is talking about delivering sometimes over the next year. Why can't Microsoft just do this if someone has already shown them the way? The support nightmare and considerations that Microsoft has when they ship something as part of Windows is dramatically higher and bigger and uglier than anything Star Dock may ever face. Star Dock serves primarily an enthusiast audience with these kinds of utilities. They're not going to learn to the sorts of problems and Microsoft will have around things that most of us don't think about everyday - the sheer variety of platforms that are out there in the world. Give them some credit. I think Microsoft is moving as quickly as they can on this kind of thing, but it's not as simple as… Star dock has already done it, why can't you just do it now? It is a little more complicated than that.
Mary Jo: There are a few other pieces related to this. When I got to interview Terry Meyerson fairly recently. I said to him are you guys going to try to sync up the updates that you do with Windows phone and Windows because now it's all one big team a unified operating system group at Microsoft. One big happy family or at least trying to be a happy family. He said no that we should not think about because we know that with Windows phone eight there were three what they called GDR's - General distributional releases, later known as updates between the time of Windows phone eight being released and Windows phone 8.1 being released so we shouldn't just assume every time there is a phone update. Going forward there is going to be a Windows update that coincides with it. It's not going to work like that and it shouldn't really work like that because there are different needs on those 2 different platforms right now. The rumor about Windows phone is that there is going to be at least two different updates for that coming after Windows phone 8.1. The word out there is that the first of these updates will be sometime around this summer, and it's going to have some kind of gesture recognition capabilities in it. Microsoft has formed a publicly they haven't even said that there are going to be updates for windows phone after 8.1 but it is worth remembering that just because something is happening on one platform doesn't mean that it's automatically going to be mirrored on the other, or that the dates are going to line up. Those two things are happening kind of in lock step but in parallel tracks. That is something to keep in mind as we start seeing what happens also, after Windows phone 8.1. I guess we should revisit to what we have heard said about what comes next for windows in general, which is - Microsoft, we think it's going to be simplifying the SKUs for windows as they march towards Windows 9. We think there are only going to be three by the time windows nine ships. This is all information from sources too. One of them is going to be some kind of a SKU that is a consumer SKU that will work on phones and also cheaper, smaller tablets, and that SKU may work on both Arm and Intel, probably Intel atom. That SKU will also probably not have a desktop in it so it will run like a C apps because the phone obviously doesn't have a desktop. Then there are going to be to others we think one is going to be a regular pro equivalent, which will have a desktop and be able to run C apps and then there will be another that will be strictly an enterprise SKU for people who need all the high-end capabilities. If what we've heard is correct we think that first SKU – the modern low end SKU is going to be free for everyone and the other 2 are still going to be paid. Now a lot of this is still up in the air in the very early planning stages on their part but things could change. That’s what we’ve heard so far about that.
Paul: I always wonder about the subscription angle and it’s not really clear yet whether we could call Office 365 kind of a block buster success with consumers in particular. Obviously there are millions of people who use it. I think just sort of from the consumer prospective and user prospective; one of the best things about that service is the really liberal licensing terms for Office. Previous obviously better than anything else but it seems like offering some form of liberal for windows would help accomplish a few things including getting people en masse to upgrade to the latest version of Windows which I think is one of the big issues these days but they don't really seem - they've never mentioned this. They've never even hinted at it. It's unclear if they are inclined to do so.
Mary Jo: There is a lot we don't know and I think it's fair to say that there is a lot they don't know either because they are changing so many of the ways things are done in the Windows team right now and the Windows phone team right now that they are just kind of trying out these new models and a lot of people…
Paul: Would you say they're winging it?
Mary Jo: I don't know if I would say they're winging it, but I would say things are not as predictable and set in stone as they have been in the past. I think that is a fair statement.
Leo: They’re winging it. I'm just been silly. Does Microsoft still do the mix conference or is that over because I'm just wondering I think they are reusing names. The new Microsoft office member family member is called Mix.
Mary Jo: That is going to be super confusing.
Leo: Yes, what is that going to do?
Mary Jo: Last fall, we heard a rumor that Microsoft was working on this new member of the office family that was code named remix. Supposedly it was going to be some kind of a quote unquote digital storytelling app, whatever that meant. This week, Microsoft actually…
Leo: Oh because there is such a huge need for that. Tell my digital story.
Mary Jo: This week they actually put this site online and I don't know if it was a mistake or intentional. They put a mixed preview site online and it talks about Office Mix being an add in to PowerPoint that allows people to do audio and video recordings of themselves, making presentations, and then send that up to the cloud and have that be remix in some way so that you can get analytics about the presentation and about the way people are interacting. You can add digital quizzes and a lot of other add-ons to your presentation.
Leo: I can actually see a market for this. This is kind of what people are doing right now with courses and lectures and how to videos. It's big on YouTube. I think they are thinking business.
Mary Jo: Also education. They are really pitching it hard to education.
Leo: Frankly, I think there may be some gamers might use this.
Paul: in the 1960s. We call this the Raytheon language lab. You would have the all metal microphone stuff and you would be speaking Spanish and your teacher could listen in.
Leo: Oh yes the language lab! I don't know why I said gamers because it has to be PowerPoint right.
Mary Jo: Yes, I believe it has to be PowerPoint.
Leo: So forget that I said gamers. Teaching. I could see for sure.
Paul: These things have a way of bleeding around.
Mary Jo: I know. Now, with the Xbox operating system being able to actually run out. It's not as far-fetched as it may seem to have something like this run on Xbox one.
Paul: Because you have the people participating through their TVs with an Xbox one and you can probably interact with it via voice or…
Leo: The most popular category right now on YouTube easily is gamers sitting and playing a game and talking about it as they play through it. That is really popular right now.
Paul: Yes. My son lives on those kind of videos.
Leo: Kids love them and eat them up. If you are stuck in PowerPoint that is not going to help.
Mary Jo: It may not look like PowerPoint, right? I'm betting it really doesn't look like PowerPoint when it comes out.
Leo: If you're a teacher you can - this is what you want to do. You can record your perfect lecture with all your notes, the slides, the animations, the illustrations, and then you don't ever have to do it again. There is other interactivity as well.
Mary Jo: Yes, there is other interactivity and it.
Leo: I like this I would use it.
Mary Jo: It is intriguing. There are some things to it that you would say I could see somebody using that. They are saying it will work on the Mac but there will be some limitations. Right now for the test preview build that people can sign up for unique to have at least office 2013 on a PC. Mac users it says are going to be able to view Mix and other devices will also be able to view them, but we are not sure how much they'll actually be able to do things like write on the slides, which you can on Windows.
Leo: That is cool though. It's really neat.
Mary Jo: Yes, we don't know when this is coming in I don't know if this will be part of the next version of office, whatever it ends up being called office 2015 or if it's just going to be a separate category of new office apps not, long or how that's going to show up. We don't know if it's going to be a Metro style app originally the tips that we got about remix when it was code named remix was that it was going to be a Windows store Metro style app.
Leo: It does acknowledge that a lot these days a lot of presentations are not done in person, they are done over the Internet.
Paul: And PowerPoint already has the capability to broadcast presentations throughout the Internet. It's actually really nice.
Leo: That’s great. You wouldn't have to go to Vegas anymore. For those…
Mary Jo: That would be so awesome. I would pay.
Leo: It’s not going to happen that quickly. I would hate to not have to go to Vegas says Mary Jo Foley.
Mary Jo: I would.
Paul: You could just pay for a first-class ticket to Vegas and just do the presentation on the plane and then fly back.
Leo: Guess where I’m presenting from? The plane! All right we're going to take a break. There is some big news about Nokia of coming up in just a little bit. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley and we are talking about Windows. If you want to learn about Windows listening to the show is highly recommended but it's not the only way. Maybe you would like to get some online courses or instruction. Maybe you would like to learn about share point and how to use it to publish to the web, and to share documents and manage permissions. Use share point administrator; how to design workflows that boost your team’s productivity. Wouldn't you like that? There are many ways to learn, but none better in my opinion than Lynda.com. I love Lynda, partly because Lynda has some of the best instructors; people who are not YouTube stars, but actual people working in the field people who understand. If you want to learn the latest about office 365 tricks, become an Excel expert, use Outlook to increase your productivity. You’ve got to love Lynda.com. Learn photography from a pro-videography a micro learn web design and development from a pro or 3-D animation, audio and music production. Lynda.com offers Excel courses at all levels. You can learn over 65 tips, tricks and shortcuts in Excel 2013. That is one course. Learn how to move copy and analyze large amounts of data stored in multiple worksheet. I'm just going to search. I bet you if I search for pivot tables. This is the one thing I would love to learn how to use Excel. Here it is. And you just saw me do something that is really cool about Lynda.com because they have transcripts of all their courses. You can search into the transcripts and actually get access to the information you want. So here is up and running with Excel 2010 building exhibits table Excel 2013 pivot tables. Wow this is a whole course. Pivot tables in depth four hours of 50 min. with Curt Fry on how to do pivot tables in Excel 2013. That is awesome. Of course you've got the Excel 2013 essential training and on and on. There are pages of pivot table, including for Mac. That is one of the things I love about Lynda.com. In fact, if you just visit and go to Lynda.com and click the browse button for the library you will see huge vast quantities. There are over 2400 courses and more courses added every week produced in beautiful, high-quality. Hundreds of courses on Microsoft software including all of Microsoft office windows. 8.1 Windows phone developing apps. Yes, you can learn to be a developer at Lynda.com. So here is my deal for you if you visit Lynda.com/windows right now you can do it for seven days and have the run of the place - every video. How many courses if you stayed up all night for seven days. How many courses could you take? Whether you have 15 minutes or 15 hours each course is structured so you can learn from start to finish. You can jump right to the part that you want. There are courses for all levels beginner, intermediate, advanced and as I said the instructors are the best. I know many of them. Especially in photography and Photoshop. It seems like all of my buddies work for Lynda.com. This is new but Lynda.com also offers certificates of completion when you finish a course you can publish it to your profile and that is valuable, it says I studied this and I know this. Normally $25 a month for the entire course library 3754 the premium plan, including exercise files that let you follow along with the instructors projects but you can try it right now as I said a full seven day trial for free. Lynda.com/windows I love Lynda I know her and we used to have her on the screensaver regularly. She's great and she's put together a wonderful company. It's a real asset. Many companies, including ours have a Lynda account for their employees to polish up their skills or to learn a new skill. I was just reading about Phil another great friend and the CEO of Evernote. And he said I have a friend who is nuclear submarine officer and on a nuclear sub everybody has to know everybody else's job and so he does that in his company he brings people into the meetings even if it's a different apartments so that they can learn how the company works. Everybody needs to know everybody's job - It's a great way to do it - Lynda.com. Make yourself more valuable at work with Lynda.com. Paul Thurrott, Mary Jo Foley the invaluable! Talking about Nokia… By the way, an update: I ordered my 1520 on the show last week I thought I'd have it by this week but it has not come yet. I will check this and they had to get more stock in. Nevertheless, I'm excited about that. Do I have to call it the Microsoft mobility phone now?
Paul: Please don't. Don't ever call it that.
Leo: It sounds like there's something wrong with it.
Paul: I think there has been a little too much emphasis on the name. I think that is like saying Microsoft office is the business productivity… It's just the name of an organization.
Leo: We’ll still be able to call them Nokia phones. I hope.
Paul: They haven't said yet but I suspect at some point they will, but my understanding is that they can use the Nokia brand for years and will and could and they own now the Lumia brand. I don't know. I think they'd be silly to screw with it but I guess we'll see. They haven't said exactly what their plans are.
Mary Jo: I'm looking for it. They gave us some kind of indication. Anybody in the chat room remember that?
Leo: But the big news is that they expect to close Friday. Wow! The chat room says they can only use Lumia. Nokia did not sell the company to Microsoft. They sold just the mobility or the phone division. There are plenty of…
Mary Jo: Here it is. I got it. Microsoft licensed the Nokia brand for 10 years. At least that was the original agreement when they announced that they were going to buy them. So I don't know if they've changed that?
Paul: I don't expect them to go 10 years and the other thing is Nokia part of the company that is left actually within a much shorter period of time. I think two years can start their own phone efforts if that's what they want to do.
Leo: Now you’re smoke alarm is going off.
Paul: I wondered if anybody heard that. I heard footsteps going to address it.
Leo: Do you need to leave the building immediately Paul?
Paul: My comment will be my wife must be cooking again.
Leo: You’ll be eating McDonald’s tonight my friend. So I'm just checking in. They're still a “waiting stock” on my 1120. That's a bummer. I was looking forward to getting it. I got the bright red edition.
Mary Jo: That’s a really nice phone.
Leo: It’s really big, but I got the big one because I realized I'll be showing it on air and the bigger the better right?
Mary Jo: Here’s another update; Nokia can reenter the phone business after December 31, 2015.
Leo: Oh that is interesting. That's a year and a half.
Paul: I don't think anyone expects that.
Leo: That is a shockingly short timeframe. I think.
Mary Jo: Also back on the branding thing, Nokia can be used for 10 years but only on the Asha line of phones.
Leo: So they can't call them Nokia Lumias.
Mary Jo: They could do Lumias right?
Leo: They will be Microsoft Lumias or maybe not even Lumias. Who knows?
Paul: They could call them surface Lumias.
Leo: The surface icon.
Paul: The branding stuff is terrible. It is one of many things that could go horribly wrong.
Leo: Never really been good at that but their phones are beautiful.
Mary Jo: Nokia brand outside of the US is a big draw. That's a tough thing to lose.
Paul: Remember when Windows 2000 shipped the boot screen and I think on the box and just the general branding it said based on NT technology.
Leo: Oh that reassures everyone of course.
Paul: It was kind of an ugly way to make that transition. Knowing Microsoft, there will have to be some formerly Nokia however they decide to do it. I'm sure there is going to be something like that. In the United States nobody cares but for the other 90% of the planet that brand is actually a really strong brand, especially for phones.
Leo: Well that's why they kept the Asha part right because Asha is the low end stuff. It does seem like they would like to keep it for the rest of the phones too. It's going to be very confusing if - I'm confused already.
Paul: It’s okay because this thing is going so gang busters that a little confusion right now won't screw anything up.
Leo: Do you think that's why my 1520 has not shipped because they've got somebody in Norway scraping off the Nokia logo? I don't know why I said Norway because Nokia is from Finland.
Paul: It is a solid color through and through, so they could probably melt it.
Leo: There is a Norwegian fellow here. Let me just see the Norwegian - this is the 920. See it does say Nokia pretty prominently on the back there.
Paul: If you were to take a screwdriver and ouch that right now would that come off.
Leo: He says no, stop it. What's your name again? Ulla, thank you for letting me - this is such a - that's the same red that I'm going to have on my 1520. That is pretty. It is going to be huge. I love the design of these phones.
Paul: If you put it on a train track and let us a train run over it; it would probably go out to approximately the same size as a 1520. It would be a little flatter and the bigger.
Mary Jo: I like the size of a 1520.
Leo: I cannot wait. I'm so frustrated and I know it's imminent. I paid for it already, but I don't have it yet in my hot little hands, actually my man hands. Stephen Elop has already - is he already in Seattle?
Mary Jo: Yes I believe so he's already the Executive Vice President of devices.
Paul: I have looked today, but just the other day I looked and he still not listed on Microsoft's…
Mary Jo: He’s not listed on the website. I saw that too.
Paul: Which is probably illegal. I’m sure they have to be careful about that kind of stuff.
Leo: So who signs his paycheck?
Paul: Leo who doesn't sign his paycheck?
Leo: That means all of the regulatory hurdles have been cleared.
Mary Jo: Right. As of Friday, Microsoft gets 30,000 more employees.
Leo: Wait a minute you need 30,000 people to make those phones?
Mary Jo: most of those people are in manufacturing and they're not going to be in Redmond. They are going to be in India and Korea…
Leo: So Nokia makes its own - it doesn't go to Voxcon and say make these for me like Apple and everybody else does. They have a Nokia factory?
Paul: Yes they do.
Leo: I don't know how Samsung does it. They might make their own.
Paul: But Apple doesn't.
Leo: Apple contracts that out.
Paul: When Apple got into not just phones, But the way Tim Cook came up was he was looking at cost cutting measures and at the time going to China was the right way to do that…
Leo: Right. It just seems like 30,000 people for just the phones…
Paul: I think that Nokia has just been doing this for so long that that's the way…
Leo: I think some of those people are not going to have jobs after April 26th. I just feel like…
Paul: I am curious about that. Microsoft agreed to take them on, I don't know that they can just sign the agreement and then start firing people. I'm not really sure how that's going to work.
Leo: Actually, that's not unusual in an acquisition like that to fire everybody and then selectively hire some back. That way at least you start seniority fresh.
Paul: I am worried about the impact this is going to have on phone sales and on phone releases too. Obviously they have some things in development and some things that are rolling along. This is going to impact people at Nokia. This is going to impact every part of it.
Mary Jo: The good part is the people who they are bringing in through the Nokia acquisition take a more active role in what Microsoft is doing at the surface because they have the supply chain stuff down pretty cold and Microsoft does not. So I think you're going to see them become more involved. Maybe even in the manufacturing of surface and surface peripherals. Maybe they can also do that when they bring the manufacturing capabilities on.
Leo: Here’s the Nokia website. With a strangely distorted photo on it. They say - the title of this post is “weak links not if we can help it” and it's a snapshot of this supply chain and basically it says most manufacturing is done in-house. But they point out is, and this is an interesting point, complying with our strict social internal social and environmental requirements - probably the only way to really make sure you're not using child labor and polluting is to make it yourself. That has got to be costly. Especially problematic when supply and demand goes up and down. If those are your employees. You don't lay them off because this phone is not selling in the month of June.
Paul: It is old school.
Leo: It is kind of surprising to me.
Paul: Microsoft does things the Apple way when it comes to hardware.
Leo: They don't make the surface right?
Mary Jo: No, they don't make the surface.
Paul: No, it's probably made through Vox Con and Megatron and all of those other companies.
Leo: Nokia does their own raw material extraction and processing. So among the 30,000 people there are few minors.
Paul: Yes, it's a kind of old-school weird company.
Leo: I like it.
Paul: Well don't get too attached to it Leo because it's about to be…
Leo: But if you want to buy a green products this is probably because of this a better sustainable product.
Paul: Right, the Lumia 930 literally green is coming too.
Leo: So they do not buy metals from the Republic of Congo because they are concerned about the conflict there. This is really quite an interesting page. Because their Scandinavian you know they are not lying. Right, am I right?
Paul: I was going to say because of legal and regulatory requirements but…
Leo: No it's cultural. It's all cultural. Actually, is Finland - they are not Scandinavian? Finland is not considered a part of Scandinavia. It is its own little world.
Paul: So you would include Denmark and there but not Finland?
Leo: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all Scandinavian, Finland not so much. I just learned about by the way on the Craig Ferguson show. Because he had some finish people and he like me thought that was Scandinavia but fortunately…
Paul: I think it is no?
Leo: I’ve got a Norwegian fellow who definitely knows the truth.
Paul: There are some people from Russia who think it’s part of Russia.
Leo: Well it is, it's practically Russian. Just across the Baltic. But it's partly a linguistic thing because the Finnish language isn’t a part of the Scandinavian language group and so I think it's is partly linguistic.
Paul: They have more umlauts or what?
Leo: No Finnish is a Turkish language I believe. Not that this show is the proper venue to discuss these things but…
Mary Jo: It’s educational.
Leo: Nokia is very proud. They buy conflict free tin.
Paul: I love Nokia. It’s just the saddest thing that’s ever happened. I still feel terrible about this.
Leo: Really? You’re a Microsoft guy!
Paul: I’ve seen what happens to companies that Microsoft buys and I’ve seen what happens when Microsoft consolidates things. Paul: I feel like Microsoft was the best things that ever happened to Windows Phone.
Leo: You kind of feel like those 30,000 people that some of them are going to be out of work.
Paul: I hadn’t really even considered that aspect of it until just now. I’m not certain how this is going to impact their momentum in sort of a design sense.
Leo: I’m with you. Lumia phones are easily the best Windows phones right?
Paul: How can this keep getting so much better, it’s amazing. I’m just worried that something is going to change. I do agree that they could affect Microsoft in a positive way. When talking about service - not that there’s anything inherently wrong with service per se but we’d love to see Nokia’s impact on the service organization. I’m curious about some things whether or not they’re going to consolidate some of that stuff down. Nokia has their own tablet but Microsoft has their own tablet – so we only need one line of those. I don’t know – I’m nervous about the net result and it’s going to take a while before I get over that.
Mary Jo: I’m trying to be an optimist about it because if you look at some of the more recent acquisitions that Microsoft has done – I’m thinking about Yammer as one example. They have left them alone mostly and…
Leo: Yammer benefitted from that because they got included in the enterprise and all of that but they maintained some integrity… The same thing with Skype right now right?
Mary Jo: Let’s be optimists.
Leo: Are they going to leave the headquarters in Finland?
Paul: They already don’t own the headquarters in Finland.
Mary Jo: They don’t, they sold them.
Paul: They are in a lease situation over there.
Leo: Bye, Bye, Espoo. I just like saying that – Bye bye Espoo.
Mary Jo: A lot of the top people who work with Elof are joining Microsoft, they’re moving to Redmund, so they’re coming over to be part of it.
Leo: Somebody in the chat rooms suggests that maybe Microsoft should move its manufacturer to the Nokia place. That would make surface better wouldn’t it.
Paul: Part of the culture of Nokia is that they are from Finland and that is their background and the people who by and large would be from around that area or at least in Europe typically and that I think impacts their design and their outlook on life, the way they do things, it’s non pacific north west Microsoft kind of blandness. It’s cool that those guys are coming to Redmund but over time that kind of stuff gets filtered down a bit and…. I think culture and design sense and the kind of uniqueness of Nokia is partially because they are Finnish and now they’re not going to be any more.
Mary Jo: I think you have to look also at how closely the Windows Phone team at Microsoft and Nokia have been collaborating. There is a lot more emphasis now on design among the windows phone team. They and the Nokia folks before this ever happened were already working together on design and they were talking about optimizing things for design and thinking that way instead of thinking the old Microsoft way which was design as a total after thought.
Paul: I really appreciate you being the Ying to my Yang and all that but I… It’s like any relationship, at first it’s mysterious and wonderful and new and different and then they move in and you get tired of them. We’ll see. I agree with you that there are recent examples where Microsoft has done the right thing or at least veered in a different direction than they used to. Yammer and Skype are both great examples of that and I hope, I do – because I want the right thing to happen but I am worried about it.
Leo: The whole thing about renaming it to Microsoft of Mobil Oy by the way…
Paul: I believe I’ve actually seen this…
Leo: So this is a real letter, real email.
Mary Jo: It’s a note that went out to the suppliers.
Leo: Well then it says some other things that maybe this is the answer to some of our questions including that they want to keep the… Microsoft will assume and rights, benefits and obligations of the Nokia devices, services, businesses, including Nokia’s agreements with suppliers, customers, and partners. So that’s not going to change – the supplier base will be intact even for the new company. 32,000 people will move to Microsoft of which 18,300 come from the assembly manufacturing and packing division. 4700 people from Finland. So it’s a small group really that are in Finland, relative to the total size.
Paul: I would imagine that’s mostly design, management and not manufacturing.
Mary Jo: Also maybe some of the patent people…
Leo: But the address remains in Espoo. Not like they’re going to be forwarding mail – oh here’s another letter to Nokia, let me send it on over to Microsoft. Well this is interesting. The supplier base is going to be kept intact. Somebody is saying and this may be the case that strict employment regulations in Finland may prevent them from doing much to change the structure. But remember the Finnish employs only 4700. The vast majorities are in manufacturing - 18, 300 are in manufacturing. Those people are as you said in India and other places so who knows what the rules are.
Paul: There was a lot of talk about this when this acquisition was first announced. It hasn’t emerged as an issue in the months sense that Finland would have some sort of EU style of requirements or regulations that we weren’t familiar with here in the United States. It’s odd to me that that hasn’t emerged as issues.
Leo: HTC has said Hey Nokia or Microsoft if you’re selling the Chin hai plant we’ll buy
Mary Jo: That plant has been caught up in some tax controversy around Nokia and taxes.
Leo: That was one of the things that help up the acquisition.
Mary Jo: That’s what we thought although they kept an eye on that. I don’t know if it’s been addressed.
Paul: Nokia is still battling the Indian courts with a half billion dollar tax bill.
Mary Jo: We may hear that that plant doesn’t transfer over.
Leo: Right, nobody has said that it’s for sale.
Paul: It’s not enough to impact the sale – in other words…
Leo: They came over, they knocked at the door and said should you ever want to sell call us because I’ve got a check right here with your name on it. Very Interesting.
Mary Jo: The day everybody should be watching for more news on this is this Friday because it’s not going to be like it’s final now. I’m sure we’re going to hear more details that can then be released on Fri. That’s my guess.
Paul: I’m going to wear a black arm band on that day and fly my Nokia flag at half-staff or whatever you call it although I don’t have a flag.
Leo: The chat room has been great on this because they’ve got lots of links. There’s a plant in Brazil, China, (A couple in China) Hungry, India, Mexico, South Korea and Viet Nam. So all of these are company owned which is interesting. Microsoft has signed on to something quite massive.
Paul: It’s unusual right because usually you buy a saw for a company. Physically this is a small entity. Nokia is like you just bought a Kia or a Hondai or something. They have all these manufacturing facilities all around the world.
Leo: Now Dr Pizza published an article this morning on Technica and he says it turned out that the sale had been changed somewhat. This is weird, Nokia's web and social media presence will be managed by Microsoft for up to a year.
Mary Jo: It's not that weird, right? I mean because they own them.
Paul: Yeah, I don't think this is a big deal. Nokia does a pretty good job on the web, like they have that Nokia conversations blog. And Nokia's website is actually quite good so I think what they're talking about is the stuff related to the phones and the apps that are on the phones in that conversations blog and so forth. Those people have just got to be working at Microsoft.
Leo: I love it that it's Microsoft Mobile Oy.
Mary Jo: Doesn't that mean like limited?
Leo: Yeah. It's like limited. There's oy and oyle.
Mary Jo: A-y-j, right? There's one that has a-j, a-y-j.
Leo: More like pro creation and oy is more like limited. I just like saying Microsoft Mobile Oy.
Paul: I'm curious about the legal entity though. It's been described as an affiliate, like a Finnish affiliate of Microsoft you know?
Leo: I think those 4,000 employees probably stay in Finland, at least the ones that keep on. And I hope so, because they really do have a good design team. And it's unique.
Paul: But I bet the design stuff has got to be going to Redmond. It's got to be.
Leo: Doesn't Nokia own like all of the Windows phone sales? I mean, it must be most of them.
Leo: Wow. And the 5.2 line is a big part of that. I see here, what you said... 40%?
Paul: Yeah, AdDuplex does a survey every month of Windows phones out in the world and they come up with all of these interesting statistics of which phone models are the most frequently used out in the world and so forth. And for the past year, the charts have been dominated by the Lumia 520 and it's variant's; the 521, and so forth. But I guess that just peaked, in the sense that in April for the first time, the 520 and it's brethren have not grown month over month, but combined, they occupy just about 40%. So 4 in 10 of all Windows phones of the world, and many of the phones in the top ten are phones that were released a long time ago. Going back, in fact, to the Lumia 800 from a couple of years ago.
Leo: Well yeah, because people don't buy a new phone every year.
Paul: Right, right. It's just kind of interesting and this phone is kind of a microcosm of the Windows phone market in the sense that, what this phone proves is that Windows phone can succeed on the low end.
Paul: This is a device you could buy right now for $60 in some places.
Leo: Wow... But it's a good phone.
Paul: It's an awesome little device. Yeah, it's funny because I have access to incredible technology, you know, think PedX with carbon and Surface tablets and all of this stuff. But honestly, in the past couple of years, the best deal in technology in many ways is a little device. It's such a cool little phone that does so much. It's an offline GPS and Maps, an amazing media player that is expandable with micro SD storage, it's awesome. It's just an awesome little phone.
Leo: Neat. Don't you love it?
Paul: Yeah. It's so cool.
Mary Jo: And you bring up an interesting point that is also another thing we're going to be watching. Which is, what happens to the Nokia X phones, which compete head-to-head with this little phone.
Leo: Oh, yeah... The Android based Nokia phones.
Mary Jo: This is what goes head-to-head, right?
Paul: Yeah, and it's one of many reasons I've never understood the need for this Nokia X line-up. Well, actually I should say if Nokia was going to survive as a standalone company, the flip-side of all of my yammering over this sale is that Nokia was losing money, right? So as wonderful as those foreigners were, I was among some minority of people who understood that and weren't buying them so that's a problem and I think going after Android was part of a grab for just trying to be successful. It's understandable on that note but I think the 520 represents an amazing value; Today, still, it's an awesome little phone and one that I think competes very well to those Nokia X phones. The other thing- And we probably talked about this like a year ago or something. -But one of the coolest things about the 520 is like, let's say you're in an AT&T and you have an iPhone 5s or you have a Lumia 920, whatever it is, and you're 1 year and 18 months into your contract, then you drop your phone in the toilet or smash it on the ground and the screen is all splintered and you either can't use it or might not want to. And of course, AT&T is not going to just give you a new phone, you spend $60, get a 520 in order to ride out the rest of your contract until you can upgrade.
Leo: $60 and it's subsidized?
Paul: Yes. And it's awesome. It's not LTE crazy high end quad core whatever, it's not.
Leo: But you don't need that.
Paul: I know a lot of people who've tried it and I think a lot of people who haven't tried it and could try it would agree that it's surprisingly good for what it is.
Leo: NoahMA in our chat room said, "that's what I did, my wife broke her iPhone so I got her a 520."
Paul: And then you have that kind of positive experience and so when the time comes to upgrade- His wife will probably buy an iPhone 6, that's how she is. But I think a lot of people having this experience would say so what's the high end Windows phone look like now? Maybe they would consider that, so that's a neat thing. And this is a trend we've seen all year long but some of the other stuff, you were asking, what percentage of the market Nokia owns. This is not market share it's usage share, 93.5% of all Windows phones in use right now are Nokia phones.
Leo: Not really a surprise, yeah.
Paul: Yeah. Amazing. The other thing that I found that was really notable this month is that the survey was taken one week after Microsoft released Windows phone 8.1 and to be clear what that means, Windows phone 8.1 was kind of released with air quotes. It's available to people who join the developer program and go through a couple of hoops to get it, it's not something anyone in the world could just turn the phone in to upgrade immediately. You have to really want it. It's not hard to do but it's something you have to explicitly go and try to do. And even though it was only a week later, 3.1% of the phones that they surveyed were already running Windows phone 8.1. And we can kind of do the usage on how many phones throughout the world and market shares and all of that stuff but that's over a million people already just within a week, you know, running the latest version of the operating system. Even though most Windows phone 8 customers will kind of get it automatically over the summer probably. So people went out of their way- A lot of people. -To get 8.1 immediately and that's cool. And I think people like Mary Jo, myself, Daniel Rubino, or anyone else who writes about Windows phone all play a small role in that because we all wrote about how it's actually not that hard to do if you have a Windows 8 phone.
Leo: I wouldn't have bought the 1520 if I didn't know I could do that, to be honest.
Paul: Yeah. So there's some interesting stuff in there.
Leo: Yeah. Xbox music is going bi-
Mary Jo: Weekly.
Paul: Leo don't mess with me.
Leo: That was mean. I'm sorry. What is this bi-weekly updates? That's just crazy, that's crazy talk.
Paul: So two things here that are very interesting. One is Microsoft is communicating what they're doing with Xbox music which is one of its sort of unpopular services. You know, it's not Office, it's not Windows. It's not exactly killing it in its own market but they're going public with what they intend to do, which I think is smart and transparent and wonderful. But one of the things they're communicating is that they plan to update this thing bi-weekly, which is crazy. That's a crazy fast schedule, granted, if you've been using Xbox music on Windows phone, 8.1 in particular, you would understand why it needs that kind of updating. Actually I would say even on Android or iOS it's also true. It's a fairly immature mobile app and needs some maturing so I think that's cool. I just have a small note in here and I'm curious what Mary Jo thinks about this. If you were to kind of lay out Microsoft's product lines on a grid, what does it look like with regards to how these things get updated? We talked before about Windows 8.1 and how that's going to be updated. It's not really clear that we're on some kind of formal schedule but we've got some ideas about the next year or so. Comparing that to Windows server, comparing that to Xbox which we know is every month, comparing that to Surface which is also every month. And then the other Microsoft products across the board; Office 365 is something that's updated, I would say at least once a month but I believe they're on a slightly different schedule. It's interesting that all their major product lines are being updated very quickly, much more quickly than in the past. But they're not all being updated at exactly the same time either, it's not like the whole company has adopted this very singular schedule, yet. But you know, Xbox music is probably one of the quicker ones right now.
Mary Jo: Yeah. This was a crazy announcement because we've just been in the dark completely about what's going on with Xbox music. It was just like a black hole and suddenly they came out of nowhere and said, guess what? We're going to do bi-weekly updates.
Paul: Yeah, you could go back to October 2012 to the original Xbox music announcement and they said, this is what we're going to do over the next year. And you could lay it all out and say okay, they did this. They did this, they did this. There's a couple of things in there that they never did and never commented on ever again, ever. For example, the big one is I have music on my PC that I want to get up into my Cloud collection. It's not in the Xbox music store and I want it up in the Cloud like you can do if you pay Apple for iTunes match or you can do on Amazon mp3 or Google music, I want to do that thing. People want this, still not there. No idea when it's coming and it's not in the list of stuff they said they were going to do soon but it's odd. So yeah, like she said, black hole. They announced it, Android and iOS happened after almost a year and 18 months or more in, a lot of stuff still hasn't happened. But yeah, we welcome the transparency.
Mary Jo: Yeah, it feels like everything is on a faster schedule but they're on different fast schedules like you said. Operating systems is getting faster and they are on a certain schedule but then apps... I'm thinking like those Bing apps, Bing Health and Fitness and things like that, they're being updated fairly regularly. But then things like Windows mail, is not very often. Which is the built-in mail client.
Paul: I actually doubt there's a schedule for most of them. It's just one day you'll wake up and there will be a new version of the new version of the mail app and one day you're going to wake up and there will be a new version of Xbox music. There's no way to really know.
Mary Jo: I think the main thing to keep in mind if you're trying to figure this out is things that are Cloud services are being updated way faster than things that are on premises or local apps, that's a very general rule. So it's something to keep in mind, especially if you're a business customer, I say this a lot, if you don't want near monthly updates, don't be on Office 365 because that's the way they're going. You can still run Exchange locally and SharePoint locally. SharePoint, wooo! So, that's kind of a rule of thumb but not cast in stone and it's just something Microsoft has to figure out over time. Is how fast do you do this and how fast should you do it so you don't alienate different constituencies. Terry Myerson said this really well to me, he said, the amount of time that my 12 year old son wants updates is nothing like what J.P. Morgan Chase wants. But they're all Windows users so you have to figure out how to make everybody happy and do this at the right level of cadence. You don't want to lose people because you're going too slow, and you don't want to lose people because you're going too fast. It's a real fine line.
Paul: Yeah, you can't break your agreement with the past. We talked earlier about Windows 8 versus Windows 8.1 with update. A few businesses that did upgrade to Windows 8, they don't want to be forced to upgrade to 8.1 right now or forced to upgrade to some random update that's in the midstream. You know they have an understanding of the life cycle and are going to move at their own pace. And I think Microsoft will respect that but it's a little different for every product.
Leo: So I just canceled my Expansys order.
Paul: Oh no...
Leo: Daniel Rubino said I shouldn't order it from them because it's not the US LTE bands.
Paul: Oh, there you go.
Leo: So I'm glad it was delayed and went to Newegg but it's $170 more.
Mary Jo: Oh wow.
Paul: Is it really?
Leo: They don't have red, only black and yellow.
Paul: Yellow, I didn't even know there was a yellow 1520.
Leo: Black and yellow...
Paul: There's going to be a green version of it soon.
Leo: I think I'm just going to get black and then get a funny case. Easter egg case. But I guess I'll get it faster from Newegg anyway so... But $170 more that's just-
Mary Jo: I know. Wow.
Paul: But is that one locked to AT&T?
Leo: Oh, I hope not. I don't think so.
Paul: It probably is, and that might partially explain the cost difference too.
Leo: Those bastards, no it's unlocked but it's US LTE bands, that's the difference. I didn't realize that the one I ordered from Expansys was not US LTE bands.
Paul: So it's just like HS PA or something like that in the United States.
Leo: Yeah, so I'm glad- Daniel Rubino, thank you. A tip of the hat to Mr. WP Phone.
Paul: Actually you're right. I've been talking about the 930, which is the international version of the Icon and that would suffer from the same problem. It would run on AT&T but it would only get HSPA+ or whatever the low LTE is called.
Leo: Yeah. Okay... I'm just listening to the music coming from your interface.
Mary Jo: I keep thinking I have a bug buzzing near my ear.
Paul: So you can both hear it.
Leo: Oh yeah, what do you think I'm imagining it?
Paul: This is interesting because you guys can hear the voices in my head.
Leo: At least the bumblebee in your head.
Paul: Now you know what it's like to be me all the time.
Leo: I don't even want to do this next item.
Mary Jo: Okay. We'll just skip it.
Leo: I don't like this horse race but it is a story. The Xbox One has now sold 5 million units.
Paul: I actually think there's only one story here. In other words, the Xbox One has come out and is selling at whatever rate it's selling at, the PS4 has come out and is apparently beating it. People will point out accurately that the PS4 is sold in five times as many markets as the Xbox One and that's absolutely part of it, but to be honest, the big part of the story is in the United States, when Titan Fall launched, even I said Microsoft will get this one month kind of bump. Xbox One will absolutely beat PS4 this month. Titan Fall is the biggest thing in the world, we're told. I do find it notable that in the month that Titan Fall launched, PS4 still outsold Xbox One in the United States. Not worldwide just the US and that's interesting. I agree with people who say it's a little early and it's a long game but I don't think that was expected. I don't think you can go back and find a single person who said, oh yeah PS4 will beat Xbox One that month. I don't think anyone believed that. In fact, the story of the month before was that the gap was getting smaller. And so clearly Titan Fall would put Xbox One over the hump and it didn't and that should actually be troubling to anyone who is an Xbox One fan, Paul says as he plays Call of Duty.
Leo: I think it's early days, we don't have very many big titles. I mean one big title, Titan Fall.
Paul: But the sheer amount of marketing effort that Microsoft put into Titan Fall is what's amazing. I have never seen them push anything like this unless it's a major Windows release. If you spend any time on Microsoft's Xbox properties in particular, it was like, Titan Fall Titan Fall Titan Fall Titan Fall here's behind the scenes of Titan Fall here's a look at all the bots of Titan Fall it was just on and on and on and on. 24/7 Titan Fall and we have a lot of examples unfortunately of where Microsoft marketed something and it wasn't necessarily successful but again, I really do think if you follow the video market, this really was a surprise, I would imagine to everybody.
Leo: I think that the making of Horse Race is like- But I suppose developers look at it if they're making the choice although, with a three or four year development cycle nobody is deciding today. Whatever they decide today we aren't going to see for years.
Paul: I would say on the good news front, both of these things are selling a lot better than anyone anticipated and they're roughly comparable given the different markets they're in and they're both based on PC architecture which means they're a lot easier to program for and it's easier for developers to create games that will run on both, I would imagine. Just because of the common architecture. It's not as difficult as say PS3 versus Xbox 360.
Mary Jo: Don't forget Xbox is still only in 13 markets and that's a big deal. It's not even in Japan yet right?
Paul: Well I don't think that's going to make much of a difference. The Xbox One is bigger than the average Japanese apartment.
Mary Jo: That's a big gaming market.
Paul: No it is but it's never been a big Xbox market.
Leo: I hear you too Paul. There's got to be something- I guess in the power line.
Paul: Just to be clear, I think Leo knows but the microphone is not- I think it's not plugged into the power right.
Leo: It's coming from your power line, it's the interface.
Paul: But the thing is the interface is a fast track and audio. It's not powered- In other words, it's not plugged into a power outlet it's plugged into USB. So the computer is powering it, and I've tried it on two different computers so it's not the computer, it's not whatever distortion weird wireless bologna I've got going in my office because it happens on my laptop too so that's why I think it's the fast track.
Leo: Yeah, we'll replace it.
Paul: The thing has worked reliably for like seven years.
Leo: Yeah, it's worn out, it's tired and ready to go home to the fast track in the sky.
Paul: The fast track in the sky is actually out by the garage, but yes it will be dealt with accordingly.
Leo: Hey we dodged a little bullet. Normally the Microsoft earnings calls come in right at the end of the show but it won't be today it will be Thursday.
Paul: Didn't you sort of expect them to change it?
Leo: I thought they might change it just to keep annoying us. But it will have to be next week that we will cover the earnings. What should we be looking for in tomorrow’s announcement.
Mary Jo: Well one thing you should be looking for is Satya Nadella is going to be on the call. Which is nice!
Leo: And he would be- Did you see that Alan Mulally is retiring at the end of the year?
Mary Jo: I know, how crazy is that?
Leo: So I'm saying if Satya doesn't work out, we've got a plan B.
Paul: What wasn't said though is whether any of the Microsoft impacted this decision. Did things sour for him?
Leo: He wanted to retire all along. When I talked to him two years ago he was planning for his retirement. I don't know if he even ever seriously considered Microsoft. If he did it was pure ego.
Paul: Well we are going to find out because he will absolutely be writing a book, or somebody will write a book about this.
Leo: I will never forget the day Steve Balmer and Ken Thompson called me at home. I was cleaning up after breakfast and the grandkids were out on the lawn and Ken said Alan we've got something we'd like to talk to you about. How does $50 million in your 401k sound to you right now. Anyway, we'll find out what Microsoft made last quarter. There's nothing we don't know, they'll say they sold 20 million units of Windows a month.
Mary Jo: They're probably not going to talk about that.
Leo: They aren't going to talk about that are they?
Mary Jo: I bet they won't. Because the PC market is soft right now and they don't want to highlight that. It'll be interesting to see if they talk about Surface sales.
Paul: Any numbers they provide will be interesting. I don't know.
Mary Jo: They put it in a way where you can't really figure out what the numbers are.
Paul: In other words, they'll say Surface sales in whatever quarter it was were 112% above the same quarter a year ago or something like that.
Leo: I just want to tell Audible I'll be able to read Alan Mulally's memoirs when they come out and I will do it in that voice.
Leo: Hi, I'm Alan Mulally. You may remember me as the CEO of Ford. Well it's been a bumpy ride and I'm going to tell the truth, I hate the freakin' Mustang.
Paul: That would be excellent.
Leo: I like Alan. When I first met him I asked him what he drove and he told me that he never drives Ford. He always drives everybody else's stuff because my job is to see what the other guys are doing because my job is to see what the other guys are doing so we can beat them.
Paul: Nice cop out. I like it.
Leo: Yeah. You see that BMW out there? That's mine. I wouldn't drive a Ford if you payed me.
Paul: Someone whispers in his ear.
Leo: Mr. Mulally...
Paul: We talked about this Mr. Mulally.
Leo: I drive a triple seven boeing. Let's take a break we've got a Pick we've got an Enterprise pick, we've got beer and everything you could ever want. Coming up the back of the book is next. But first a word- What are you laughing at?
Paul: You're Alan Mulally voice.
Leo: Ken Steve, let me talk to you. This Ford thing is not going to go forever you know? I may someday want to run a software company in Redmond. I'm going to mute you because it is noisy as heck, it sounds like there are bees in your bonnet there, Paul. Our show today is brought to you by Citrix. Love the ShareFile, got to love the ShareFile. I use it every day and I'll be using it today because I record commercials for the radio show on Wednesdays and I send it out via ShareFile. Actually, it's kind of cool I don't even have to send them out at all because ShareFile automatically synchronizes my folders that I have selected on my desktop so when I save audio out via ShareFile they automatically get a notice that says Leo just uploaded new audio to his ShareFile and here's where you download it. ShareFile is the easiest way to share files in business. One of the issues in business is that you do send files all the time. You get emails and letters and so forth. Probably the last thing you want to do is share those via attachments. You know, the Power Point presentations, the contracts, the PDFs all that stuff, with ShareFile you don't have to. You can send a secure link and with a secure link you get a lot of protection. With a secure link, you can say I want to see who downloaded it and when. I get an email whenever they download it. I can say they can only have it for a week or a month, and I do that a lot of times with commercials. Let me just show you what's going on here. Here are some voice tracks, this is my ShareFile by the way interface on the web. I didn't have to upload these files and you don't have to because it syncs automatically. I'll send to WKCY there, hi this is Leo Laporte. So you can send the email directly, if you use the outlook plug-in it looks just like an email attachment but it's not. It's better. You can say email me when the item has been downloaded. I can require a name and email address before downloading but you don't have to have a ShareFile account to get the download. You can say how long it lasts; a day, a week, a month, a year, it never expires. You can say how many downloads per user. I'm going to send that link, this is a secure link I just attached that to the email. And let me show you what they get when they click that link, just a beautiful simple page with my branding so they know it came from me, I got my logo on it. And a download button, no login, no elaborate procedures. It makes it easy to share files with colleagues or clients. It's HIPAA compliant, in fact it's compliant with regulations in many industries, including the SEC I might add. So if you're in the financial business or financial services industry, ShareFile is a must. Why don't you try it for 30 days or if you're in a business and you want the business to try it out then tell the decider in chief whoever that is. The CTO, CIO, your boss to try it. All they have to do is visit sharefile.com and click the microphone at the top of the page and enter in the offer code: WINDOWS. If you can, you don't have to, but if you select the industry you'll see that ShareFile will be customized to the industry that you're in and you'll see the benefits. Everything from financial services, food services, legal, insurance, marketing, music. If you're an attorney and you're still attaching pleadings to emails- I got a pleading from my attorney this way the other day, come on! You know that everybody can read that along the way, that's not secure. ShareFile even allows you to ask for files from clients and colleagues so they don't have to have an account. I think it's great, I want you to try it free for 30 days. Sharefile.com, click the microphone at the top where it says 'podcast listeners click here,' they kind of hide that. Click that microphone at the top and use the offer code: WINDOWS and they'll know you heard about it on Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott Mary Jo Foley and a busy little bumble bee going from flower to flower collecting nectar. Just as Paul Thurrott goes from site to site gathering tips of the week. And here they are.
Paul: What are we doing?
Leo: Windows phone 8.1 tips. This is for me.
Paul: I just have a couple more Windows phone 8.1 tips. This is going to go on for a while, the more I look at this, it's interesting how many changes there are in Windows phone 8.1 and yesterday we just finally learned about a Microsoft application that allows you to project your Windows phone screen over to your PC over USB, which is how you would typically connect it in order to sync it. And this is something I wanted two years ago. When Windows phone first came out I wanted to do video tutorials all that kind of stuff. And Microsoft had that capability in house but they weren't really giving it out to others and they needed special builds of Windows phone to make it happen but now it's just a part of Windows phone and so if you have Windows phone you can connect it with a USB cable, get the Microsoft app and project it onto the screen. You get the little touch circle if you want that in there, you can choose what color it is. It's live and so it's not static screen shots, it's literally your screen. So you can scroll through and present and show people things, it's for people that need to do online learning or any of that kind of stuff. It's an amazing tool. If you have, I think it's just the Lumia Icon right now but in the future it's possible that some of the newer devices like the 1520 might pick this up, you can also do mirrorcast based screen projection- Which I've not tried yet but I will probably be writing that up sometime next week but, if you have a mirrorcast equipped screen of any kind- These days you probably need like an add-on device but in the future, I imagine some screens will just come with this capability. -It works in a similar fashion to how it works in Windows 8.1 but I would say most people today probably use mirrorcast because they're watching a movie on some service and want to put it up on a big screen. You can certainly do that, I'm not sure that would be ideal on a phone but it's just kind of a wireless way to project your phone's screen onto a big screen so that other people can see it, it's kind of a cool capability. The other one is a pretty profound change in Windows phone 8.1 and it's one that's not very well understood but Microsoft has changed the way that social networks integrate with the OS. In previous versions of Windows phone, they would integrate through the operating system itself. It's the thing we were talking about earlier where if Facebook updated the service or if LinkedIn did, or Twitter, that integration part would not be upgraded with it and so you would lose functionality. The way it works now in 8.1 is the integration occurs through the apps, thanks to this new frame work that they have and so instead of having the built in OS integration bits, it occurs in an app. And apps, of course, can be updated all of the time. Some people have complained about it because they say it's a little slower. Like if you want to do something like check in to Facebook, it actually launches the Facebook application instead of going to kind of a native Windows phone experience but I honestly think in this case that the pros outweigh the cons by a wide margin, and that this overall, is going to be an important change, and a big deal. So I think it's good stuff. I also wrote up one about Internet Explorer navigation in Windows phone 8.1 and so basically, what you're getting is essentially the same browser that you see on a desktop or at least on a tablet. I think the coolest one- And this is not going to be news to people who use iPhones. -But it picks up that same kind of cool tablet based navigation scheme where you can flick the screen back instead of having a back button, or you could flick the screen in the other direction to go forward. (Which doesn't happen as often but if you need that it's there.) In a phone I think that's actually particularly important because the phone screen is so small, that those buttons taking up space on the address bar or wherever, is just another place where UI is taking over the screen, and so integrating it into the screen is just such a cool way to do it. I'll probably consolidate these all into one overall article, like a tips for Windows phone 8.1 sometime over the weekend but so far, I think I have 12 or 15 of them and there will be many more but those are some of the ones that have occurred since our last show.
Leo: And I'm collecting them all-
Paul: Yeah, collect them all.
Leo: Collect the whole set, kids. -Someday I, too will have a Windows phone 8.1.
Paul: So there's some good stuff there. The Pick of the Week is something a lot of people have been waiting on for a long, long time, which is a remote desktop app from Microsoft for Windows phone. And it turns out, for Windows phone 8.1. It looks and works a lot like the version you can get now on Windows 8.1, the Metro app. In fact, when you look at the description it actually says it's for Windows phones and PCs. That's the new logo Microsoft is giving out for the universal apps. And I don't know for a fact that this is universal, it may just be a port of the kind of modern or Metro style app that they already had in Windows 8.1 but I would actually be surprised if it wasn't. This very well could be exactly the same app and if so, this might be the first universal app.
Leo: How can you tell?
Paul: Scroll down and on the left, it says, "Made for Windows phones and Windows PCs"
Leo: That's really interesting.
Paul: Yeah really interesting. So the Windows PC version has been around for a while and is included in Windows 8.1 and so now, here's the version for Windows phone. It's a preview, it's just an early version but it's a big deal for people... I know a lot of people have been waiting for this and were more than a little burned that Microsoft had released remote desktop apps on other mobile platforms before Windows phone. So it's finally here, it's not complete I guess but it is there.
Mary Jo: One thing we should mention, because a few people have asked me about this with this app, is does it support remote desktop gateway? And right now in preview, it does not. But all Microsoft is saying is that it does not currently support that. So they're not ruling that out if you're panicking about that. Don't panic.
Paul: If you look at the modern version- The version in Windows 8.1, which does support remote desktop gateway, I think that's the goal is for it to be that app. And I think, it will literally be that app. So it's reasonable to expect that.
Leo: You know, someone in the chat room is asking me to ask Mary Jo how you like your Acer so far, and are you getting used to touch, maybe dabbling a little in it?
Mary Jo: I am still liking it a lot and I am doing a little bit of touch like pinch and zoom but I am definitely way happier when I attach my mouse to it and use it that way.
Leo: So you'd still recommend it?
Mary Jo: I would. The battery life has been really good, the keyboard is really good, the screen resolution is really good, and I haven't had any problems with it, knock on wood.
Leo: And it's so thin. Beautiful!
Mary Jo: So thin and so light, when I put it in my bag to leave I keep thinking I'm forgetting my laptop. And that's a good thing, the weight.
Leo: Right. Acer S7, right?
Mary Jo: Right.
Leo: And you're enterprise Pick of the Week?
Mary Jo: I have two. The first one is more free eBooks because everybody loves these when they come up. So Microsoft Press has a link on Microsoftvirtualacademy.com/ebooks for a whole bunch of free eBooks on enterprise stuff. System centers, there's some books on that. Azure, Windows Server, so if you're somebody who is looking for books on those topics, you might want to check that link out. And it was listener John Baldaron who tipped me off for that, so thanks John.
Leo: And they come in PDF, moby, or epo. So you can put that on pretty much anything. That's nice.
Mary Jo: Yep, which is cool. The second pick is a SharePoint pick, and not just because Todd is there. This just happened to be a pick already.
Leo: Although, Todd is taking a victory lap right now.
Mary Jo: He is, I'm sure. The tip about this is Microsoft had to suspend distribution of SharePoint 2013 service sack 1 because it was creating some problems for people like once they applied it, they were having trouble applying fixes beyond that. So Microsoft rolled that original service pack 1 out in February and in early April they suspended distribution of it and just yesterday they are redistributing it again. And I have on my site links where you can go to the new KB articles that describe what's in there and links to getting the downloads but it's all there now. It's updated and fixed and includes some additional features. Microsoft is advising you if you did manage, somehow to get SP1 on your SharePoint server 2013 system to download it again on top. Yeah, it's not fun.
Leo: Ew, I got service pack all over my SharePoint. But if you replace it on top of it it'll fix everything.
Mary Jo: That's what it says.
Leo: That's what Todd says, too. He's nodding.
Mary Jo: He's nodding, okay. If you got the slipstreamed ISO from MSDN or Volume Licensing Center, you don't need to do anything, that wasn't affected. You're okay if you got it that way.
Leo: In astronomy, the astronomer who discovers the distant heavenly body gets to name it after themselves. Well it's the same in technology. No it's not. Somehow Mary Jo did get the right to codename something, but you didn't know what it was that you were codenaming.
Mary Jo: I didn't. This is funny, I talked about this on the show a few episodes back I said Clemens Vasters who works at Azure said to me, if you could codename anything at Microsoft, give me a codename. So I gave him Rekjavik. He said, okay I'm going to make something with that codename and I'm not going to tell you what it is. Well, at Build-
Leo: That's so awesome.
Mary Jo: -At Build, I found out what it was. Because there was a session where they actually said, "Here's Rekjavik and Mary Jo Foley named this product."
Leo: You did, they even gave you credit!!
Mary Jo: They did, and you know what's so horrible? I couldn't get into that session, it was so full. I was begging, I was pleading outside the door at Build and they wouldn't let me in.
Leo: You would've gone, Squuueeee!
Mary Jo: I would've. I would've probably taken a bow if I'd been there. So what Rekjavik is- This is pretty interesting. -It's a gateway that they're building with Azure service bus, which is a messaging bus for Azure, and it's going to be used for the Internet of Things. So Microsoft already announced that there was a date of service for the internet of things. That's what Satya Nadella announced recently. And this sounds to me, like another service coming. Probably a lower level service involving this Rekjavik gateway that Clemens and his team are going to be using. But that's my guess on what that's going to be used for, but the gateway itself is definitely codename Rekjavik. So now we know.
Leo: Wouldn't it be cool if you like created a slew of Icelandic secret names now because of you.
Mary Jo: I know. Well, I picked that name because when Microsoft does a codename, you want it to be easy to identify. You don't want a common codename like remix or mix, those kind of codenames.
Leo: Well, because then you could Google search it. Oh, I'm sorry... Bing it.
Mary Jo: Bing it!
Mary Jo: Yeah, so now we know.
Leo: Sorry sometimes I forget which show I'm on.
Mary Jo: So do we. We just start talking about Android or Apple.
Leo: Oh, don't ever talk about Android during MacBreak Weekly. Alex Lindsay got flamed, how dare you! But fortunately he had some Speakeasy Black Hand Sweet Stout ready and all the pain is gone. Is that you're Beer Pick of the Week?
Mary Jo: It is, in fact. Speakeasy from San Francisco teamed up with a Chocolatier out there, Tcho. Do you know them?
Leo: Yeah, Tcho I know of them. There was actually a tech angle on them. They were started by a successful tech entrepreneur start up guy who said, I want to do chocolate where we do it right, we're not a re-melter and we source the beans and do the whole thing. Tcho is very good chocolate.
Mary Jo: Well Speakeasy teamed with these guys and- Well I've been doing a lot of hoppy beer picks but this is like the smoothest most chocolatey stout ever. It's called blackhand and it actually has a little bit of chocolate in it and they call it a sweet stout because it is like a milk stout, somewhat sweet and more like a desert kind of a beer but it's very good. I had some this week and it was delightful.
Leo: According to the press release, the name Black Hand refers to the-
Mary Jo: Oh right.
Leo: -Prohibition era practice in which mobsters would stamp the kidnapped victim's hand print on a ransom note.
Mary Jo: Yeah, okay.
Leo: So if you look carefully, there's a secret note hidden in the design of the bottles. If you should find it, then you would know exactly what to do. Now I've got to buy a bottle. Secret code...
Mary Jo: Yeah, it's good and I think you'd like it.
Leo: I like stouts in general and I think a little chocolatey stout would be delicious.
Mary Jo: Very very nice, yeah.
Leo: It sounds very tempting. Tcho. They sent me some chocolate and they're in San Francisco and it was founded by Timothy Childs, T-C-H, get it? A technology and chocolate entrepreneur who used to do vision systems for the space shuttle program, so he has this kind of tech angle. But the people I was thinking of was Louis Rizetto and Jane Metcalf, who started Wired magazine.
Mary Jo: Metcalf, wow.
Leo: Yeah, and they are the CEO and President of Tcho. So the two that started Wired magazine currently run Tcho so it's kind of a neat story. Tcho chocolate, if you ever get a chance. It's not just for beer anymore.
Mary Jo: Nice.
Leo: Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes this thrilling and gripping edition of Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott, we will now turn him and his bee back on, we will get you a new interface. Somebody said check your thermometer. You don't have a transmitting thermometer in there do you?
Leo: No, that's silly talk. We think we know what it is and we're sending him a new piece of equipment. There it is again.
Paul: What if it doesn't fix it? I really thought I had this. Mary Jo and I tested this extensively, I thought we had it and then I talked to someone else. And I make work calls with Skype so it's-
Leo: Well what's weird is it comes and goes.
Paul: It's a mood noise. As I get angry, it gets- I don't know what it is.
Leo: Paul is at the super site for Windows where there is in fact, no buzzing. It's winsupersite.com and you'll also find his books online including his Windows phone 8.1 book at windowsphone81book.com, and what's happening with the Xbox music book, is that moving along?
Paul: It's coming, it's in progress. I released an update sometime this week.
Leo: Cool, it's all at Super site. If you go there, I presume there will be some link saying everything Paul's ever written about Windows phone 8.1, and it would just go there.
Paul: Yeah, there is such a link actually.
Leo: Because I haven't been writing these all day I thought I'd just go there and just go through it. By the way, I will have my new phone before next week. I should have gone to Newegg in the first place but out of habit I always go to Expansys, but that's a European company and this way, I'll get the American LTE. Mary Jo Foley is at allaboutmicrosoft.com. She writes there and as you can see from the show, she writes about a broad variety of things, even Xbox.
Mary Jo: Every now and again.
Leo: Every once in a while. Paul, Mary Jo, thanks for joining us. If you want to join us live, we do this show every Wednesday 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern time, 1800 UTC. You can tune in live or you can even join us at the studio as Todd and Company have. Email ticks at- Well I don't know anybody else's name so that's why it was Todd and Company.
Paul: Did they complain?
Leo: Yeah, they're going, hey what am I chopped liver? The Norwegian guy and Todd's buddy from-
Paul: I assume that they drove Todd.
Mary Jo: Todd's driver is here.
Paul: There's going to be a pansing later because of this. Tears will be shed. So if you want to join us in the studio, email email@example.com and it's not required. If you're in town, we're in Petaluma, Northern CA, just come on in. But this way, we'll have a chair out for you and we'll put keys to your new car underneath, it's just so we can prep for you. Which one of these statements is a bold faced lie, you decide. If you can't be here live, in studio or on the internet, you can always get on demand audio or video after the fact at twit.tv/ww for Windows Weekly or subscribe in your Xbox store or actually the new podcast app in Windows phone 8.1, make sure you get every episode thanks for joining us and we'll see you next Wednesday on Windows Weekly!