Windows Weekly 356 (Transcript)


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Windows Weekly 356

Leo Laporte: It's time for Windows Weekly, the beer edition. (Laughs) Oh, baby! When you get Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley in studio — you add Daniel Rubino from WP Central — to talk about this year's Build, you know you've got a great show. It is also a long show, one of the best shows we've ever done. Windows Weekly is next; you stay tuned.

Netcasts you love ... from people you trust. This is TWIT!

Leo: Bandwidth for Windows Weekly is provided by Cachefly at cachefly.com.

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrott and Mary Joe Foley, episode 356, recorded Friday, April 4, 2014

Build 2014

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It's time for Windows Weekly, the show where we talk about Windows and Microsoft and all. And boy, what is — what a great week this is. I'm drunk before the first line, and I'm  ... (mumbles) What a great week this is to talk about Windows and Microsoft because the Build conference is in San Francisco; and that brought a flurry of Windows geeks, including Mary Jo Foley from allaboutmicrosoft.com. So nice to see you. (Laughs)

Mary Jo Foley: Thanks, Leo.

Leo: It's great to have you here. And Paul Thurrott, you did this last.

Paul Thurrott: Mm-hmm.

Mary Jo: Mm-hmm.

Leo: And I wasn't here.

Paul: Right.

Leo: I'm so glad I could be here for this.

Paul: Thanks for making it this time, Leo. (Laughs)

Leo: I showed up. Paul Thurrott from the SuperSite for Windows, winsupersite.com; and along with those two, Daniel Rubino from Windows Phone Central. Great to have you, Dan.

Daniel Rubino: Morning, everybody. Or is it afternoon?

Leo: Morning? Morning!

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: (Laughs) It's a long night.

Leo: And thanks to Liz Romero in our beer department, we've got a very nice selection of beers here today. Are you going to — or what are we going to do? Are you just — are you going to do some tasting notes, or are we just going to — (Laughs)

Paul: Right, right.

Mary Jo: Sure. (Laughs) Let's try them all!

Leo: What are you drinking right now, Mary Jo?

Mary Jo: I am drinking a double IPA ... pocalypse.

Leo: Oh, you've mentioned Hopocalypse before.

Mary Jo: Hopocalypse, right.

Mary Jo: And it's really hoppy. Yay! (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah, it sounds terrible.

Leo: Later, we'll make Paul —

Daniel: Yeah. (Laughs) I'm not that into hops.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: Paul and I are doing La Chouffe.

Paul: Yes.

Leo: Belgian's best beer.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: Which makes it the best beer in the world.

Paul: Yeah, I was going to say, which makes it the world's greatest beer.

Leo: The world's greatest beer.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: And for some reason —

Daniel: I have cider.

Leo: (Laughs) Daniel's drinking cider.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: It's like apple juice with alcohol. It's a kids' drink.

Paul: I don't know if you even mind me mentioning this, but I ran into Brad today so I know that you were out —

Leo: Carousing?

Daniel: A little late last night, yeah.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: So I'm impressed that you're drinking at all.

Daniel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's, you know —

Mary Jo: I know.

Leo: Pear of the orchard.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Well, anyway, we're glad to have you all. We do not — normally on Windows Weekly, I have a fairly nice, rigid script of things that I can and cannot say.

Paul: Yep.

Leo: Today, we are —

Paul: It's wide open.

Mary Jo: Winging it.

Leo: We are working without a net. Wide open. I did tune in for the lovely and talented Joe Belfiore's demonstration —

Paul: Right.

Leo: — of Cortana, Windows Phone 8.1.

Paul: Should we all kiss the picture?

Mary Jo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Leo: One thing I noted — and I felt bad because I was a little snarky. We had just completed our coverage of the Amazon event, and we switched right over to Joe. And he's looking even more emo with that haircut than ever before. And I'm afraid I mocked him slightly.

Paul: I am almost positive Joe has not aged.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I agree. I agree.

Paul: I've known Joe since 1995 or '6, and I am reasonably sure he still can't grow facial hair.

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: But he's got lovely — a lovely mop. So we're going to keep him here because he's here in spirit.

Mary Jo: Yes.

Leo: He did a great job.

Paul: Yeah, he was great.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: And as you pointed out a couple weeks ago, he's one of the most beloved demo guys at Microsoft.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Yeah, he's fantastic.

Leo: So was that the kickoff keynote? What was —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: How did it begin?

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: So — yeah.

Paul: That is literally how it began.

Mary Jo: That was it.

Paul: With Windows phone.

Mary Jo: I know. That was — it was kind of surprising.

Paul: As all keynotes must.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: It was like, "Windows Phone, up first."

Leo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Why do you think — I — I saw an article on Business Insider today —

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: — that said Satya Nadella, in six days, has completely changed the face of Microsoft.

Paul: That's a little unfair, but —

Mary Jo: Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: That —

Leo: It feels that way.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: That's how it looks from the outside, but —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: There was definitely a change, I think, in the attitude of people.

Mary Jo: Yeah, there is.

Daniel: It's a lot — everybody's a lot more happy —

Paul: He's not God; he didn't create Microsoft in six days.

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: Well, obviously, some of this had to be in progress before, right?

Mary Jo: It was.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, I think it's [unintelligible], yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: Nevertheless, he's going to get some of the credit —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: — because it all seems to be under his tenure.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Starting last week, where he said, "Give me my iPad" —

Paul: (Laughs)

Leo: — something you would have never heard Steve Ballmer —

Mary Jo: That's true.

Leo: — who stomped on an iPhone —

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: And then, they brought out an iPhone on the keynote —

Leo: Yeah, so that's a —

Mary Jo: That's different, yep.

Leo: — different Microsoft.

Paul: Yep.

Leo: And I was very impressed with Windows Phone 8.1.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: What did — tell us a little bit about that.

Mary Jo: Well, we should have Daniel tell us. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: (Laughs.

Leo: WP Central.

Paul: My understanding is Daniel knows a little bit about Windows Phone.

Daniel: Yeah, just slightly.

Mary Jo: One or two things.

Daniel: No, it's almost like — it's very overwhelming because there's so much in there —

Paul: Right.

Daniel: — that you almost don't know where to start. But I guess the two big features everybody's going to talk about is Cortana and the notification center, which we've sort of known about for a while that they're working on. But Cortana's a big deal in a lot of ways. The thing is, it's a good marketing thing. Compared to Siri — and you have Google Now — it's going to be a really powerful system. I think the big surprise was that they actually called it "Cortana."

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: We were all hoping that they were going to do that, and they almost — they mocked themselves a little bit.

Paul: Well, they made a joke about it, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, the — what they were going to call it.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: But yeah. That, the notification center, and there's a lot — a lot — of subtle changes in the OS. It's actually going to probably take weeks to document all the little changes, and it's —

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: I was actually just surprised that, one, they opened with Windows Phone —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I know.

Daniel: — and then they actually stuck with it. I mean, that was actually a long presentation.

Paul: Yeah, they really did.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. It wasn't like, "Let's get this out of the way."

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Right, right.

Paul: Cortana was easily 30 minutes of that presentation.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Leo: But I think that's one thing that's — again, the change under Nadella is —

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: It isn't Windows, Windows, Windows anymore.

Paul: Although, you know, obviously, Cortana and Windows Phone 8.1 have been in development for some — many months.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: You know, 18 months or whatever. But it did give them that thing that they wanted, which is, you wake up the next morning and look at the news; and it says, "Microsoft releases Cortana to compete with Siri," which is exactly what they wanted, to be —

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah, sure.

Paul: — seen on the same page as Siri.

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: Well, no, I think they are. Or, Google Now. I mean —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: — it really is a three-horse race.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Sure.

Paul: Well, in the sense that Siri is kind of publicly — you know, people — more people have hen —

Daniel: Yeah, that's the name that — yeah.

Leo: And in fact, where they have an advantage over Apple is Apple, of course, chose to be — protect people's privacy, not to aggregate data. They don't have a search engine; they don't have a way of getting that — those signals. Google does.

Paul: Sounds really limited.

Daniel: Yeah. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: But Microsoft's got Bing. It's got — I mean, it really —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Well, and it has the stuff that Bing connects to, and it has the third-party app integration, which is the cool bit.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: So they did Facebook and Twitter and —

Daniel: And they also siloed the information, which is — so I mean —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: They're literally, as always, in between Google and Apple inn this.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: They're collecting information, they're using stuff, they're reading your emails; but it stays on the device. It doesn't go to the service. And so —

Paul: Right.

Daniel: And you can go into what's called the "notebook" and change that and tell it what you want to save and what you don't want to save. So they've got the best of both worlds, and I think that's the argument that they want people to hear.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: They've done a little bit of both. So —

Leo: Windows —

Mary Jo: And VPN. Let's not forget VPN.

Daniel: Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: He knew VPN.

Paul: Actually, they forgot VPN.

Mary Jo: I know. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: (Laughs)

Paul: They never mentioned it, but —

Mary Jo: VPN is back. Yay!

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: So it's built into the phone —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: — so if you have a VPN server at work or you use a —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: — commercially-hosted VPN —

Paul: There's a bunch of stuff.

Daniel: A lot of —

Leo: — you could connect with it and be secure as you surf.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. A lot of stuff that you would associate with sort of mainstream Windows —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: — is appearing in this release. For example, the desktop and the command line — no, wait, I'm sorry. (Laughs)

Mary Jo and Leo: (Laugh)

Paul: No. But, you know, it's —

Leo: PowerShell! It's back, baby! Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. There is a lot of — there is a lot of Windows —

Leo: Do I have autoexec.bat? Because I would like that.

Paul and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Mary Jo: Maybe.

Paul: ADF. [unintelligible]. Or AFD. [unintelligible], I guess.

Leo: So your impression of — let's stick with Cortana for a little bit.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Your impression of Cortana compared to Siri or compared to what Google is doing.

Paul: Well —

Leo: One of the things I was impressed — his sister called —

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: — in the demo.

Mary Jo: "My sister."

Leo: Oh, sis, don't call me now!"

Paul: Better than his kids.

Leo: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Yeah, true.

Leo: But because he had texted her earlier about — asking about the puppy —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: — it said, "Don't forget to ask her about the puppy." That — I — now —

Paul: Yeah, that's cute.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: It's creepy.

Leo: Well, that's the question: cute or creepy?

Mary Jo: Creepy. (Laughs)

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: Well — okay. No, no, no. It's —

Daniel: It's a little bit on the —

Mary Jo: I'm like, (Skeptical noise)

Paul: It's only creepy when Google does it, Leo. And — (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Right. (Laughs)

Leo: (Laughs) AT least you're honest. Well, that's the question, and I think — but the siloing is a response to that a little bit, right?

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. No, I mean, this idea — and Mary Jo and I were talking about that yesterday — about who's going to be using this — I think it's really good as a public tool for Microsoft to have, and it's going to be very powerful with Windows and Xbox eventually. But whether people actually use it or not will be a total personal decision. I'm not necessarily comfortable talking to my phone.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I know.

Paul: I'm more uncomfortable when other people talk to their phones. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. So I think, when I'm home alone, I might —

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah. But it's good — no, it's good publicity for them —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: — and that's really what matters.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: What I find, as a Siri user and mostly now Google, is I use it for dictation a lot.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Sure.

Leo: Cortana does dictation well?

Daniel: We don't know.

Paul: It's going to be great in a car. A car is a great place to talk to a phone, right?

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah, we don't —

Paul: And not look at it.

Leo: You don't want to type, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: And command-wise, it does "everything you'd want. It launches apps, which is something that —

Paul: Well, not just launches apps, but integrates with the apps.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Yeah, I liked how that —

Paul: "Put something on Facebook" or "Post something to Twitter." That kind of thing.

Leo: Right, right.

Mary Jo: Or Skype, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: They showed the Skype integration. That was pretty cool.

Daniel: Yeah. There's also FourSquare. You can tell it to check in or look for specials.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: So with Skype, you could not only say "Launch Skype," but you could say, "Call Joe on Skype" —

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: — and it would launch Skype; it would look up Joe in the contacts; and then call him.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Right.

Leo: That is great. Now, is that only because Skype's a Microsoft product, or will it —

Paul: No. It's open to third parties.

Leo: It's an API.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Or a hook. I guess it's not exactly an API; it's something that the app would provide the operating system with the hook to.

Daniel: Well, not, I don't know. It'll be detailed in the SDK, but yeah, it's —

Paul: Yeah, it's definitely API —

Daniel: Yeah, I thought so, too.

Paul: Yep.

Leo: Any other features you think are important to Cortana?

Paul: She has a sense of humor.

Mary Jo: Right, right.

Leo: She's funny.

Paul: You know, you can say, "Who's your daddy?" and she'll say, "Bill Gates."

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah. (Laughs)

Leo: She also has the best of the voices, if you ask me.

Mary Jo: Yeah, she does.

Leo: She sounds very human.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Well, that was a little bit of subterfuge, as it turns out.

Leo: So that was really a human.

Paul: Yeah. So there's two aspects to Siri.

Daniel: Sure.

Paul: There's the synthesized bit, which is what you get with Siri —

Daniel: It's called Cortana.

Paul: What'd I say, Siri? I'm sorry. Of Cortana. They're not the same thing.

Mary Jo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Paul: I don't care what I just said.

Daniel: It was the beer.

Paul and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: And that's that kind of robotized kind of computerized voice that you get with a lot of speech synthesis. Then there are the bits that were pre-recorded, which are just her voice.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: And they sound very clean.

Leo: Right.

Paul: And —

Daniel: It is a little jarring right now.

Leo: So those — oh, I get it.

Paul: Yeah, it's going to improve over time. It will — but —

Leo: So there are some pre-recorded phrases —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: Yes.

Leo: Like, "My daddy is Bill Gates."

Daniel: This [unintelligible] stuff.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: That stuff will sound very clean.

Leo: That's going to sound excellent.

Paul: Now, over time, that's going to improve.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And that's one of those things — it's just going to take some time. It's a beta.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: You get the impression that some of this was last-minute decision making and approval to do things.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: So the whole Jen Taylor —

Paul: Well, it came in at six days.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. (Laughs) Right, right.

Mary Jo: Yeah. (Laughs)

Daniel: The whole Jen Taylor thing —

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: — doing the voice was not —

Paul: Right.

Daniel: — something —

Paul: Jen Taylor being —

Daniel: Yeah, for the voice of Cortana, for Halo —

Paul: Halo being —

Daniel: (Laughs) I know, right?

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: Is it the same — is it Jen Taylor —

Daniel: A video game that —

Leo: Is it the same woman doing it?

Paul: Video game being — (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Oh, that's interesting.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. She's actually signed on, and —

Paul: Yep.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: — they will be recording, so — but that, as far as I know —

Paul: It's not like the voice of Siri, who was —

Leo: That's a job for life.

Paul: — surprised to discover she was the voice of Siri.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: That's like — that's like —

Daniel: Right. Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: That's winning a — winning the magic prize. I want to — let me see if I can pull up the video of some of this demo, and you can talk a little bit about it.

Daniel: It really is — I mean, Cortana really is sort of like this combo of Google Now and Siri.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: For instance, when you launch it, it'll give you a summary of your day — your news, your weather, traffic — and you can tell it the things you're actually interested in, and it will configure that. And you don't even have to have that do that. It's also neat — you can just type in the window, and she won't talk back to you —

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — because it's presumed that you want it to be quiet.

Leo: Ahhhhh.

Daniel: Which I think is actually a —

Paul: Jenny is beautiful.

Leo: That's smart.

Mary Jo: That's a great idea. And then, if you shut it off totally, you just get Bing again, right?

Daniel: Oh, is that true? Yeah.

Mary Jo: I think so.

Daniel: It would make sense, yeah.

Mary Jo: I asked that, of course, because I'm a little worried about it.

Paul: And that's the question were asking. "Well, what about the countries that don't have Cortana?"

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: "How does that work?"

Mary Jo: You get Bing.

Paul: Because it takes over the search button —

Daniel: Sure.

 

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: So now, instead of handing your phone to someone and they see the Bing screen, they'll see Cortana by mistake —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — because that's the button everyone hits by mistake.

Mary Jo: Yeah. (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) You know, with Windows Phone.

Daniel: Yeah, and it's completely woven throughout the OS. In Internet Explorer, if you do a search, it actually hops back to Cortana because Cortana is ultimately powered by Bing, so —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Right. They should have called it something Bing. That would have been great.

Daniel: Oh, geez, no.

Leo: I had —

Daniel: "Bing Voice."

Paul: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Uh, no.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: It's pretty impressive. I think what's going to happen is, there'll be a back and forth —

(Video begins)

Leo: There we go, here we go, here's some of the demo stuff.

Joe Belfiore (on video): Here's an example.

Leo: What phone is he using?

Joe (on video): Show me all the Japanese restaurants in Seattle.

Daniel: That's a —

Leo: So that's the new Windows 8.1 phone from Nokia that won't be available until the end of April.

Cortana (on video): Here are ten Japanese restaurants in Seattle.

Paul: So that's actually an interesting point, too, about Cortana, in that it will work on every Windows phone that runs Windows Phone 8.

Mary Jo: Right.

Joe (on video): How long will it take to get to the first one?

Paul: It's not a high-end phone —

Cortana (on video): It'll take 38 minutes to drive to Kisaku Sushi Restaurant.

Paul: That's how we got here.

Joe (on video): I could have said this multiple ways, but Cortana understands what I mean.

Leo: This is interesting because this video —

Joe (on video): Sometimes, however, voice —

Leo: — it's like his rehearsal for the actual live performance.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: (Laughs) It's very — it's kind of disorienting.

Paul: Do you think he sleeps in a hypobaric chamber?

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: Just curious.

Leo: They've added the slide keyboard —

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Key part of Windows 8.1.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Shape keyboard, I think is what they call it. And shape writing. It's actually really, really impressive.

Paul: Yeah, it's — I'm not used to it, but —

Daniel: Yeah, I still haven't switched over to it completely, but —

Paul: It's a funny thing to —

Daniel: It's great for one-handed use.

Leo: I really prefer it on Android. It's what I use all the time.

Paul: A lot of Android people say that, yeah.

Daniel: What's nice about it, it's completely optional.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: There's nothing to enable.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: You just choose it or don't use it.

Paul: Right. It's not — right. It's not a special mode or whatever.

Daniel: Right, right.

Joe (on video): ... so she doesn't speak up in her response to me.

Leo: Availability — we're going to — keep Joe running.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: And when he's — this is something we just talked about.

Paul: This is a fairly short video, but — yeah, so we should talk about how this is going to get out into the world, I guess. So obviously, we've got the new phone coming, and —

Leo,: Watch this here.

Joe (on video): Next time I speak with my sister, remind me to ask her about her new dog.

Leo: I see. So he actually — he wasn't texting his sister.

Mary Jo: No.

Leo: He actually gave her a reminder.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, he created a reminder.

Leo: So that's not so creepy. That's not creepy.

Mary Jo: Except that when you call her, it comes up.

Leo: Oh, yeah. It would be creepy if it deduced that from email or other conversations.

Mary Jo: Yes, that would.

Paul: The reminder is a new feature in Windows Phone 8.1, right? Doing reminders?

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah. Because you had to come off OneNote and stuff like that, but it wasn't the same — or an alarm. But yeah, this is, like, an advanced feature.

Paul: Yeah, just a separate feature. So —

Leo: Who is he looking at right now?

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: Is he looking at you, Paul?

Paul: He's looking at his sister's dog.

Leo: Oh.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: So — all right. So schedule-wise, what was — do you remember, off the top of your head, the phones, how they're getting out into the world —

Leo: I do remember them saying that —

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: — on new phones, end of April, early May, we'll start to see new Windows phones —

Daniel: Yeah. Right.

Leo: — like the 635 —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Well, there — I mean, we only know about — we know about three of them.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Right.

Leo: What are the three? there's the 635, which is not — which, as you said, is not high-end; it's a mid-range phone.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Right. 630 and 635. They're actually pretty barren. I mean, I don't even think that has an ambient light sensor, and they got rid of, like, a lot of the — it has no physical front keys, and they got rid of the camera key. So —

Paul: Oh, they don't have a camera? I didn't even notice that. Okay.

Leo: Will they not offer a high-end?

Daniel: No, no.

Mary Jo: Oh, wow.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Will there not be a high-end? a 1021, or —

Paul: No, there will.

Mary Jo: There might.

Daniel: Yes, a 930.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: So the 930 is kind of their — I would say, high-end but for the masses.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: It's not, like, a niche device like the 1520. So that's going to be sort of — but that's rest of the world. It's basically the same device as the Lumia Icon on Verizon. Which — that's a whole weird thing.

Leo: Yeah, I feel — I'm kind of glad I didn't, as Mary Jo did, buy the icon.

Mary Jo: Yeah. I'm happy I bought it. (Laughs)

Daniel: Why? It's —

Paul: She's a warning for all of us, Leo.

Leo: She will get it —

Mary Jo: Wait! (Laughs)

Leo: Now, that's — the second question is, for those people —

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: — who have late model Windows phones —

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Leo: — when do they get it?

Daniel: Well, so Microsoft was really smart with this. When they announced Windows Phone 8, they announced that they were going to do an enthusiast program to allow people to update their phones before carriers.

Leo: That's really smart.

Daniel: But that took a long time. Like, we almost thought that they abandoned that idea.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: And it was only —

Paul: I think we reminded them. I think we —

Daniel: Yeah, right. Yeah, I remember.

Paul: I think they had forgotten.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: And then — it was, like, late last year — they finally put it out there. And so what that is — it's a — it's meant for developer —

Leo: 50 bucks, right?

Daniel: No, it's free.

Paul: No, it's free. They do it free.

Leo: It's free.

Daniel: Yeah. It's meant for developers, but it's really kind of a wink and nod, because you go to the — what is it? — App hub and app studio, and you just log in; and then you download an app to the phone, and you just log in with your Microsoft account.

Paul: I see — yeah. Right.

Leo: Do you have to register as a developer prior to doing that?

Paul: Yeah. It's free.

Leo: Right, but it's free.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: All you do is log into the site.

Leo: Okay.

Daniel: Yeah, that's it.

Leo: That's it. Now I'm a developer —

Paul: I mean, you've signed away things to Microsoft. The point is, you get the key that you need. (Laughs)

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: No, this is nothing — this is nothing weird.

Leo: So those bits will be available when? End of April?

Daniel: Soon.

Leo: Soon. Sooner than that.

Paul: In April.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: In April. Okay. We're in April now, I believe.

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: Yep.

Leo: All right.

Mary Jo  and Daniel: (Laugh)

Paul: Let me rephrase that: Sometime in April.

Leo: This month.

Mary Jo: Yes.

Paul: Sometime that is not today.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Anyone with a Windows Phone 8 device — and even someone, like, with a Lumia  810, which is on T-Mobile and it's not expected to actually get this update officially — they will be able to install this app from Microsoft —

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: — they launch it and they enroll in it, and then they can — they would get the update.

Leo: Wow.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: And they can keep it for as long as they want.

Leo: So you get the Cortana; you get the swiping keyboard.

Daniel: Yep.

Leo: What else? Reminders?

Paul: Yeah. Improved apps. You know, calendar's been improved, Skype's been improved —

Daniel: Yeah, the calendar's been revamped.

Paul: Well, Skype's been added, I should say, and then improved.

Daniel: Yeah. You've got the action in notification center.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: So that's probably — that's one of those features where I think people are going to use it like a dozen times a day, easily.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, they're going to just use it all the time. And it's sort of easy to overlook how important it is.

Paul: Well, unless — so anyone who's used an Android phone —

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — or an iPhone knows how awesome having that notification center is.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Yes.

Paul: And how crucial it is.

Leo: Yes.

Paul: And the version in Windows Phone is particularly good. It does kind of a nice integration with the apps, so if you —

Daniel: Right.

Paul: — push off the reminder of new unread emails in the Outlook app and you go back to the start screen, the tile no longer has those numbers.

Daniel: Yeah. Right.

Paul: It's a nice —

Daniel: Yeah, it's impressive. Because, like, iOS doesn't do that, apparently.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: You can dismiss the notifications in iOS, but then — like, say you had a Whatsapp message. You go back to the home screen, and your Whatsapp icon will still have the little number badge. Which means you have to open that up just to clear it, even though you might already know.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: So that goes to show sort of the deeper hooks that they're —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: — doing with it. And it's fully configurable, as far as the quick action buttons —

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: — which I think a lot of people wanted. They still don't get everything right. I think one of those quick action buttons a lot of people want in emerging markets was the data toggle switch. It's something that seemed like it was simple that they overlooked, so ...

Paul: Yeah. And it would sure —

Mary Jo: Enterprise, enterprise, enterprise.

Paul: Oh, geez.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Anyway, Daniel. So —

Mary Jo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Paul: So let's talk more Xbox Video.

Mary Jo: VPN — you get VPN. You get mail encryption, right?

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: Now, tell us all those acronyms.

Mary Jo: S/MIME.

Paul: S/MIME.

Daniel: Yeah, S/MIME.

Leo: S/MIME's great.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Certificate management; you get mobile device management capabilities —

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Wow.

Mary Jo: Woo!

Daniel: This was something —

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Daniel: Now, this was something that was - Windows Mobile years ago.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right. I know.

Daniel: They lost it.

Mary Jo: Everything that you lost —

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: — is coming back.

Daniel: Right, right.

Mary Jo: Right. And so this is really great because so — I've talked to so many business users who say, "I'd like to get Windows Phone, but it's missing everything I need," basically.

Leo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: And so now, this is also going to be part of 8.1.

Daniel: Right. Yeah.

Leo: It strikes me that new start screen is kind of busy.

Paul: Well, it can be. It doesn't have to be.

Daniel: It can — right.

Leo: If you use small icons.

Paul: Well, and you can put a background image on the start screen, but it works the opposite of the way it does in Windows.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: It doesn't — it's not on the outside bits of the tiles; it comes through the tiles.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, there, it makes the tiles transparent, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Yeah. So I think kids will love that, and I think adults will not love that.

Leo: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: I liked it.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: I thought it was cool.

Leo: It's a lot of —

Daniel: It's really dependent on what image you choose.

Mary Jo: Yeah. Right.

Daniel: If you choose, like, a photo that has [unintelligible] and it's blurred out and it's not high contrast, it actually works very well.

Paul: Well, and it also depends on which tiles you have and where.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Because some tiles are still opaque —

Daniel: Right, right.

Paul: — and they will block the image.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: But it has that neat parallax view, where, like —

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: So if you made it big tiles, you could look like the old Windows Phone. You don't have to have that — seems like there's a lot of stuff going on.

Paul: Oh, of course. You don't — yep.

Mary Jo: Yeah, you don't have to.

Paul: And actually, that's another neat thing —

Leo: Here's the action center.

Paul: It — yeah. So when —

Leo: Swipe down from the top there.

Paul: — in that screen, that's probably a 1520, but — which has a 1080P screen so you get that kind of density of tiles. But they're bringing that to all of the phones, so even if you have an 800 by40 screen —

Leo: Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of tiles. (Whistles)

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Well, but you at least get the option.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: So on a 1020, for example —

Leo: Yeah, you want the option.

Paul: — I would want that kind of display. And you can't get it —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Right.

Leo: Is there anything different in these notifications? They look very much like Android or iOS.

Daniel: Oh, yeah. No. So with the notifications, developers get a lot more options, including — so, like, right now with the live tile — first of all, you have to have the app pinned to your start screen to get the tile to give you a notification. This is one of the reasons why we wanted a notification center because you don't necessarily have apps pinned to your screen.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: But sometimes, you don't want, like, an alert to wake the phone.

Leo: Yes.

Daniel: So if someone liked your image on Facebook — I mean, it's nice, but —

Leo: I don't need that to —

Daniel: You don't need to wake that up.

Paul: Oh, I always — I need that kind of feedback.

Mary Jo and Leo: (Laugh)

Daniel: (Laughs) So you can actually go into the notification setup and choose — go by app. So you can go to Facebook, turn off banner notifications, don't vibrate the phone. And you can even have it not show up in — just show up in the notification center. So they're kind of like these ghost notifications, where you can go to the action/notification center and see it, but your phone won't alert you to it.

Leo: Right.

Daniel: And that gives developers a lot more flexibility. Developers can actually update those notifications through the app themselves.

Paul: I just hope the configuration of this works because I notice on the Android and iOS both, you can configure notifications on kind of an app-by-app basis —

Daniel: Sure.

Paul: — and then your phone buzzes and you look at it and it's the app that you just told you not to give you notifications.

Daniel: Ah. Sure.

Mary Jo: Oh.

Paul: And it takes a while to kind of hunt these things down because they all work —

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — a little differently, and it's — you know, the sheer number of apps that can give you notifications —

Leo: Welcome to the world of Android and iOS.

Mary Jo: Yeah. (Laughs)

Daniel: (Laughs)

Leo: Problem we've had for years.

Paul and Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: I — you know, this is a big jump for Windows Phone.

Paul: Yeah, it is.

Mary Jo: It's really big.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: More than just an update.

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: This is a really big new version.

Paul: Which is why they call it 8.1.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I know. (Laughs)

Daniel: Right, yeah.

Leo: There's the background example, by the way.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: I was going to show the video.

Paul: Yeah, that kind of parallax effect.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: That's a little bizarre, but —

Paul: But again, teenager —

Leo: Teenagers are going to love it.

Paul: — Mary Jo —

Daniel: (Laughs) Mary Jo.

Mary Jo: Me and the teenagers, we're going to have that. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: But I think it was a really surprising decision because when it was first coming out that that's sort of what they were doing, a lot of people — I mean, everybody thought it was going to be in the background, and they did —

Paul: It looks —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Like, this — this is fake. There's no way they're doing this.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. And it was actually really — I mean, they could have — they once again did it differently. They did it their own way.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: And I thought it was actually a smart decision. And if people don't like it, they don't need to use it. So —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: If they don't like it, they can use iPhone. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah. Right.

Leo: Well, I think it's interesting that they're kind of threading the needle between Apple's privacy policy —

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Right, right.

Leo: — and Google's privacy policy. They —

Paul: I think that's the sweet spot for Microsoft.

Leo: There's probably a place there for — yeah. Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: The same thing with even the devices, right? So they actually have a range of devices, but it's all the same user experience.

Paul: Same thing.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And — more than Apple, less than Android. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: It's interesting how they're almost always right there in the middle.

Leo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. You also have — Internet Explorer 11 is new in there.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: The email client's been updated with a lot of new features. Yeah.

Paul: The Xbox app's been split out.

Daniel: Sure.

Paul: So there's an Xbox Music, video, there's a podcast app, and there's a separate FM radio app as well.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: You mentioned Xbox. Cortana on Windows Phone is not the same as the voice on Xbox 1 now.

Mary Jo: No.

Daniel: Right.

Leo: But —

Paul: You have to think that's changing. In fact —

Leo: — but that will probably change.

Paul: — I can't believe they didn't spend more time on that. Cortana would make plenty of sense on Windows tablets, on —

Leo: Yeah.

Paul: — Xbox —

Mary Jo: Yeah. But it's future. It's a future, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: And Windows, too.

Daniel: They've got to get it —

Leo: Your desktop, absolutely.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: So they didn't talk about it at all, but we've heard from people we've talk to it's coming.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: So —

Daniel: But yeah, they've got to get out of the U.S. first.

Mary Jo: They do.

Daniel: Because Cortana will only launch in the U.S. —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: — first, and then go out to other countries.

Leo: yeah, let's talk about that. That — that's what happens —

Paul: You know, that always makes people happy.

Mary Jo: I know.

Leo: But it happens because you've got to have —

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Localization.

Leo: — recognize different —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: — languages.

Paul: It's going to take them months and months just to get the U.S. English version right.

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: And —

Mary Jo: And then, you have guys like Dr. Pizza and Tom Warren. It's like —

Leo: We talked about that.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: You could never expect —

Paul: Tom Warren's review is going to tell you that Cortana sucks because Tom Warren doesn't speak English. Because he —

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: You know, like — I mean, you can't understand a word that he says. Like, you have — you have to take, like, a second to listen and say, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay." So that's going to be interesting. I'm actually curious to see how that goes.

Mary Jo: It's going to be interesting, yeah.

Leo: That's a — it's a common problem on these —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Sure, of course.

Mary Jo: But isn't part of the reason, too, that it's launching only in the U.S. because of Bing?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: So Bing is — yeah, heavily U.S.-focused —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: — much to the chagrin of a lot of people. I mean, because Windows Phone does better outside the U.S.

Mary Jo: I know.

Daniel: And so it's always a weird thing. But I think Microsoft is a U.S.-based company, and it's easier for them to test in their own backyard.

Leo: What do you mean, Bing doesn't work internationally?

Daniel: Well, it does; it just has more features in the U.S.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: A lot more features. (Laughs)

Daniel: Bing Rewards. Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: That's — you guys probably, too — I get this feedback all the time.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: I'll describe some awesome Microsoft initiative — it doesn't matter what it is — and they'll say, "Oh, Thurrott, it's" —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: "You live in the United States. You have no idea what it's like in Australia, or" —

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Right.

Paul: — "Canada" or whatever third-world country you're talking about.

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: "And we don't have these things."

Leo: Third-world?

All: (Laugh)

Paul: I can't —

Leo: Gentlemen, you have my permission.

Paul: Whatever the hell [unintelligible] is —

Leo: (Laughs) He's joking.

Paul: War zone, whatever.

Mary Jo: Yes, maybe.

Leo: All right. We're going to take a break. We've got a great panel. Of course, Paul and Mary Jo are here in studio, along with — they brought sixty of their closest friends.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: Nice to have you all from all over the world. Also here, from Windows Phone Central — wpcentral.com — Daniel Rubino, and — is that right? Rubino? Did I say that right?

Daniel: Yes, that's right.

Leo: Not "Rub-ino."

Daniel: No, no. (Laughs)

Leo: Okay. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: He's not from Australia, Leo.

Leo: But Build wasn't just Windows Phone. I'm sure there's a lot more to talk about, and we'll do that in just a second.

Our show today brought to you by our friends at ITProTV. We know a lot of you are IT professionals or interested in getting the certs that can help you get a better job as an IT professional. There's lots of ways to learn that information. Certainly, many of you have tried schools and classes. Others have gone to the bookstore and picked up books and so forth. But if you're watching this show, you might be interested in ITProTV. Very influenced by the screensavers and what we did with the TWIT network. In fact, the folks at ITPro freely admit they stole everything from us. (Laughs) Same microphone, same switcher — in fact, if you look at the set, it's even very similar to our set. They've redesigned. I want you to visit itpro.tv/ ... is it /windows? /ww. And visit, and you'll see some very new stuff. Thirty hours now are added each week. The episode library covers courses on CompTIA, Microsoft Cisco, including A+, CCNA, Net+ Security, MCSA. They have new, higher-end security courses from ISC Squared, including SSCP and CISP, featuring Adam Gordon. Some really hard-core stuff. That's really — whoops. — really wonderful stuff. You can try it for free if you visit. They just — this is a new website, newly redesigned. And they have now a very basic, free plan, lets you watch live via Roku and the web with selected courses. That's a great way to start up, but I think you're going to want to try this subscription because you get a learning management system that helps you track your progress; a virtual machine sandbox lab environment, so you can try it in the sandbox, which is great. Measure-up practice exams are included with your subscription, that alone worth 79 bucks. Annual subscribers can also now download episodes in audio-only MP3S so you can listen in the car as you're driving. It is, in fact — I think, one of their most requested features. They listen, folks, and they give you what you want. Corporate accounts also available for departments and companies. You'll find more if you inquire on the support page for that. So check it out. Itpro.tv/ww. Upgrade your brain with the most popular certifications recognized by employers. There's also a free preview on the site, if you want to check out some of their videos. Or visit the live video stream. Let's go there right now, see what they're — what they're doing on ITProTV.

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Did Microsoft talk about Windows at all?

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yes.

Leo: Oh, okay.

Paul: This is weird, Leo. I usually play Call of Duty when you're doing the ad.

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: Do you?

Paul: And I — yeah. (Laughs)

Leo: I knew it!

Mary Jo: (Laughs) I write some stories while you're doing the ad.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Leo: Instead, everybody got up to have a wing.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: And more beer, I think.

Paul: Everyone just got food except for us.

Leo: Yeah.

Daniel: And I got a glass now. Really nice glass; look at me.

Leo: Oh! Living it up!

Mary Jo: Fancy! (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah, it's like —

Paul: So before we go to Windows, though, we talked a little bit about how people can get 8.1 early if they want it. And of course, they'll —

Leo: You've got an article on your site, by the way, for that.

Paul: Do I?

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Paul: And —

Leo: Yes.

Paul: (Laughs) — there's new phones coming. But as far as the normal —

Daniel: Right. The official update — yeah. So that's going to have to go, of course, through carriers. You know, because that's a dual — it's not just the OS; there's going to be corresponding firmware, Nokia's new firmware coming out called Scion — Lumia Scion. And so that's still being worked on, actually, by Nokia. So —

Paul: And is there any details about that? I saw that in print, but I hadn't —

Daniel: Yeah, it was — it was a [unintelligible] core, I think, some camera-to-live imaging for the, like, live pictures. What do they call them? The living pictures.

Paul: Yep, yep.

Daniel: So there'll be a couple new features. Yeah, they didn't detail, I don't think, everything. There'll be also Dolby recording for the Lumia 930; so it will be one of the first phones to record in Dolby digital. So that'll be impressive. But all that will take a few months, so we're probably looking at June, July, August, where that will start to happen. It'll be dependent upon carriers. So people will be able to get 8.1 early, really, to unlock all the features —

Paul: But not the —

Daniel: — it'll be a few more months before it happens.

Paul: Yeah. So it's, like, carrier features and handset maker features.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Is there any reason not to get the developer bits, or are you going to —

Daniel: No.

Leo: No.

Daniel: Because that — it's one of those —

Paul: It's been so clean, yeah.

Daniel: It really has. No complaints, no breaking of phones, no — no issues.

Paul: You know, yet. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: But so far, so good.

Leo: And you could do that today?

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: No, sometime in April.

Leo: Okay.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: That's right, you mentioned that.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: All right. Good. So Windows is free; that's a big story.

Paul: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: I like —

Paul: So that was the most confusing part of the keynote —

Mary Jo: It was, actually.

Paul: — and I went back and watched the video later to make sure that I got this correct.

Leo: (Laughs)

Paul: And I actually had the chance to — I said this to Terry Myerson. I said, "You know, you said exactly two sentences about a free version of Windows, and then you handed the mic to Stephen Elop."

Leo: "Didn't you think anybody'd want elaboration?"

Paul: Now, actually, that is the biggest Windows story of the year by far, and you spent 17 seconds on it. (Laughs)

Leo: What'd he say?

Paul: He said, "Yep."

All: (Laugh)

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: He said, "We figured you'd carry the water for us, Thurrott."

Paul: And I said, "So do you care to elaborate on that at all?" And he's like, "Nope."

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: So is anything — any screen less than 9 inches.

Mary Jo: 9 inches or less.

Paul: 9 inches, yeah.

Mary Jo: And all Windows phones.

Leo: So what it isn't is for your Dell desktop PC.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Right.

Leo: But it could be for your Dell 8-inch tablet.

Paul: Yeah, it literally —

Mary Jo: It will be.

Paul: Yeah, it is.

Daniel: Venue Pro, yeah.

Paul: Now, the question here — there are a lot of questions here, actually. One is, I don't believe they mention the phrase "Windows RT," for example, in the keynote.

Daniel: No.

Mary Jo: Nope.

Paul: Now, that doesn't mean Windows RT is going away.

Leo: They didn't say it at all?

Paul: I don't think so.

Leo: Wow.

Paul: That may or may not be important. It's Windows, whatever.

Mary Jo: Yeah. Right.

Paul: But, Windows being all Windows on that screen size or smaller, free. Which I think dramatically changes things, but I also — I sort of wonder what this might mean.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: You know, does Windows Phone scale up to almost 9 inches now?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Is — does Windows RT go away?

Mary Jo: Right. We don't know.

Paul: I don't know. They don't — they're not talking.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: They won't say.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: But I felt like it was kind of a precursor to the thing that we know was happening, which is Windows Phone and small tablet OSs are converging with Windows 9, right?

Paul: Right.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: So they're just kind of setting that up.

Paul: But I wonder — you know, they talked about universal apps, for example, apps that you can create that — versions for both phone and —

Leo: They didn't really talk about that underlying —

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: — common runtime —

Daniel: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I mean, that's clearly a big —

Leo: Moving in that direction.

Daniel: That was — yeah, that was actually a really, really big thing that — like, during the developer sessions, they went into a lot more detail, like, specifically to store —

Paul: I — yeah. I feel like people don't understand how big this is, right?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Because Windows Runtime — WinRT — is now going to work on 8.1 devices — meaning Windows 8.1 — and also Windows Phone 8.1 devices. This is, in fact, a new version of the API.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: It's not the old WinRT.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: It's not the WinPRT that Windows Phone 8 came with.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: It's not — certainly not Silverlight that Windows Phone 7, whatever, came with.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: So this is the third API change for Windows Phone —

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — which is crazy.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: And the second API change for Windows 8, which is also kind of crazy.

Leo: I guess they figure if you don't have any developers, you can't really piss them off.

Paul: (Laughs)

Daniel: Ooooh. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Oooooh. (Laughs)

Paul: Well, I mean —

Leo: Oooooooh, sorry about that.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: Could you turn off his mic, please?

Leo: I just said that in a room for the developers.

Mary Jo: Yeah, you're — you're done. (Laughs)

Paul: Have you ever been — have you ever seen a bag full of soap, Leo?

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Daniel: But, like, it's going to be really cool what developers can do with this stuff now.

Mary Jo: It will.

Daniel: So basically, a developer can write, a lot easier, an app for Windows 8 and then port it to Windows Phone, keep most of the code. But more importantly, in the store, it's actually — like, developers now can write an app for both, but charge once.

Paul: Right, right.

Daniel: And that's something we really heard about because people were really upset if you bought an app on Windows Phone —

Paul: Well, Halo — the Halo game — being a key example there, yeah.

Daniel: Right. Yeah. And then you would go to Windows 8, and you're like, "Oh, but I paid for it, so I've got to pay for it twice."

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: Now they can do it just once. You can do in-app purchases that cross over.

Leo: How easy is it to do that? Is it just a question of screen size differences, or —

Daniel: It's gotten easier, I would say, with this new release.

Paul: Yeah. Windows Phone first, then Windows —

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — you know, the Metro stuff in Windows — has always done a very good job of scaling to the screen size, the resolution, the pixel density.

Leo: So you don't even have to worry about that too much.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: I think that stuff is —

Leo: And the fact that it's Arm versus Intel, it — that's handled by the compiler, you don't —

Paul: It's all there.

Leo: — have to worry about that.

Paul: Yeah, it's all there. Well, we already have Arm. You know —

Leo: So a universal — making a universal version of the product is not so hard?

Paul: Well, you know, it's —

Leo: Or do you make —

Daniel: They're closer to it.

Paul: Some of it —

Leo: You're making two different copies; you're just charging once.

Paul: Yes. Some of it's semantics —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: — because it's — it's a solution in Visual Studio where you have multiple outputs. And that's true in Windows today.

Leo: But you do output several —

Paul: I mean, even Windows today, if you target just Windows —

Leo: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: — you create three separate executables — one for X86, one for X64, one for Arm. And now you could add one for Phone.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: But — I don't know; they seem to — well, I guess it is really two separate apps.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: I think it really is. I think.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: No, I — yeah, I think they are two separate — it's getting closer. And then, also you get the Xbox 1 stuff.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: Which is coming. Which —

Mary Jo: Which they hinted, right?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. So that was, like, really interesting that —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: — all that sort of opening up, hopefully.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: I want a weather app on my Xbox.

Mary Jo: Yeah?

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Well, that's CRM. No?

Paul: Just like a weather — little [unintelligible] thing in the corner.

Daniel: Huh?

Mary Jo: CRM? No?

Daniel: Oh, no. I don't know.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: CRM? No. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Sorry.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: I had written — you know, I had gotten a leaked version of the SDK a few months back, and I had written an article where I basically said, "Universal apps are a lie."

Mary Jo: Mm-hmm.

Paul: In the sense that you're really not creating an app that runs on every platform; you're creating separate apps that — and there's some crossover code and all that kind of stuff, and I think that's still kind of technically true; but I think the thing that has changed since then is, you look at what they're doing — there's way more universalness to it than I had thought originally.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: That — I guess that — you know, you can create solutions that have, like, a common code base in the middle there, like a project of common code. But the amount of stuff that you can have in common now because they're all on the same API is more. It's a lot more.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: And they — they refocused a lot of things. The store is now, on Windows Phone, similar to the Windows 8 store with the different categories and, basically, discoverability of popular titles that people would be interested in.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: And on things that you previously downloaded. It gives you recommendations. They're giving developers a lot more tools. They can actually respond now to people who have left reviews. Developers can respond back to those and create a dialogue with the customer. So they're —

Paul: Right.

Daniel: They're doing a lot — a lot of changes. A lot of them are subtle that won't get the headlines, but I think, long-term, it's good for the platform.

Leo: Now, this and the free version of Windows — this — the — Obviously, common runtime, that's got to have been in progress for years.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: In fact, this has been on the roadmap for years.

Mary Jo: Right. It has, right?

Leo: We've been talking about this for years.

Mary Jo: I know. Every time we heard the three screens and the cloud —

Daniel: Screens and the cloud, yeah.

Mary Jo: That was this —

Leo: Right.

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: — but it just never was possible until now.

Daniel: Sure.

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: But the — but making Windows free on sub- 9-inch screens, that could be done in the flip of a switch. That's a —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: That's a Satya Nadella move.

Paul: I think that's fair.

Leo: That's the crown jewels. He's giving away the crown jewels.

Paul: I think that's fair because — yeah. And I think — I don't remember who told me this, but somebody said — and maybe this was in front of a bunch of people. But somebody said that Satya Nadella, unlike Steve Ballmer, is focused on the user —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: — whereas, what he was focused on was the spreadsheet.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: And if they came in every month with great revenues and great profits, that's what he cares about —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: — and that's how we get there. And there's obviously room for that when you're leading the company.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Where he is more — Satya Nadella is more focused on, "Let's just make sure we're pleasing everybody."

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: That's a much more modern way of approaching the market, frankly.

Mary Jo: It is.

Paul: Well, we'll see how — what their financials look like in 12 months, but —

Mary Jo: I know.

Daniel: Right, right. (Laughs)

Leo: You know what? Initially, it might not do as well —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: — but in the long run, I think — well, what do they gain by giving away Windows on sub- 9-inch screens?

Daniel: Right.

Leo: Make it parity with Android? Is that the idea.

Paul: Yes.

Mary Jo: Yeah, that's the idea.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: So it's free to install Android on your phone —

Paul: Well, you see what happens. They — and this is not the only reason — but in the past two months now, we've had 10 new companies sign up to — or maybe 12.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: — to sell Windows Phone devices.

Daniel: Yeah, two new ones, were announced.

Paul: We had basically the same couple companies, and then a few Chinese companies came on board over the years. But in the span of two months, more companies — twice as many companies — have signed up to sell Windows Phone devices than had ever done it over the period of three years.

Leo: And that kept the margin of what — 5, 10, 30 dollars more per phone?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: How much are they paying for Windows?

Mary Jo: We don't really know.

Daniel: We don't really know, yeah.

Paul: 15, 20, somewhere in there, yeah.

Leo: It's — it's not insignificant.

Mary Jo: No.

Daniel: No, it's not.

Paul: But it's — yeah. But that kind of low — high-volume, low-margin business —

Leo: That's a big deal.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — that's the difference between them making money on this thing or —

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — losing a little bit —

Daniel: They're doing a lot to basically break down barriers for OEMs to make any kind of Windows device, whether it's phones or tablets. They just — that's one of the reasons why they got — on Windows Phone, they got rid of the button requirements.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: Right.

Daniel: Basically, so they could recycle their Android —

Leo: Cheaper.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: — hardware, and just put Windows Phone on it, so they made that. So they're doing a lot to really get their stuff out there —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: — without any complaints.

Mary Jo: So what they're counting on, too, though, is making it up in services, right?

Leo: Yeah. Right.

Mary Jo: So they're giving away Windows on — at the low end —

Leo: This is the Google strategy.

Mary Jo: Right. And so then they're going to sell you more Office 365 —

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: — and more — more OneDrive storage and all that.

Leo: Right. That makes perfect sense.

Mary Jo: It does, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: I warned them, though — I —

Leo: Especially if you are a laggard in those categories —

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: — the only way to even chance to get up is to be competitive.

Mary Jo: Yep. Right.

Paul: I —

Leo: How about om the tablets? That's an interesting one. Because I can see phones.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: But, given —

Paul: Well, but it's the same thing, right? because Android is —

Leo: You're giving up a lot, though. I mean, that's got to be a significant source of —

Paul: What they're competing against is Android.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: And — you know, the reason we see a 99-dollar Android tablet in CVS as you're checking out is because —

Daniel: Right.

Leo: It's free.

Paul: — Android costs nothing.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Essentially.

Leo: So —

Mary Jo: Except [unintelligible]. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: What do you think Dell was paying — what do you think Dell was paying for the 8-inch tablet?

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: We don't really know.

Paul: I bet it wasn't a 30-dollar raise.

Mary Jo: Do you really? I thought maybe a little less.

Paul: I think 45 or so for full Windows, and 30 for —

Mary Jo: Really? Wow.

Paul: Yeah. Because they're — you know, Office is in there, too.

Mary Jo: Oh yeah, you could buy full Windows. Right, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: It does — do you think this has been telegraphed, and that's why the company — so many companies are doing 8-inch tablets?

Paul: Well, do you wonder — do you think there are people at Nokia doing the math now, saying, "So hold on a second."

Leo: (Laughs) "How much do we" —

Paul: "So if we hadn't been paying for Windows for the past three years, would we still be in business?"

Leo: Right.

Paul: You know — you know — I mean, this —

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I'm not saying that that would have made a difference, exactly, but —

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — there's got to be some consternation there.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: We didn't mention that right before Build, there was some executive shakeups — Nothing unusual.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: We knew that Elop would get moved to Devices, right?

Mary Jo: Right, right.

Leo: What else happened?

Mary Jo: Scott Guthrie — Mr. Red Shirt —

Paul and Daniel: (Laugh)

Mary Jo: — is now the head of Enterprise and Cloud.

Leo: You called it, though.

Mary Jo: I called it.

Leo: You said that was going to happen.

Mary Jo: I called it. (Laughs)

Leo: Yep. And then, what else?

Mary Jo: And — yeah.

Leo: More Chouffe. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: Keep talking, Leo.

Daniel: Yeah. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Phil Spenser takes over Marc Whitten's job, right?

Leo: Is that a surprise?

Mary Jo: Not really, no.

Paul: No, not really.

Leo: No. But this is —

Mary Jo: And Terry Myerson gets a little more of the Xbox, right, also?

Paul: A little more? He got the rest of it —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — except for the hardware.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: He basically —

Leo: So he was just Xbox —

Paul: But, I mean, that — no, he was just Windows, the core OS. The OS.

Leo: Just Windows. Oh, he was core OS.

Mary Jo: But he was also Xbox OS.

Paul: Yeah, the core —

Mary Jo: And Xbox Lite, right?

Paul: But only the core OS.

Mary Jo: Okay.

Paul: Right. So he got all — all of the Xbox software.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Ah.

Paul: So it's very interesting to me — well, it's not interesting. We know now because of what just happened.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: You move Xbox software into the Windows group, and then they announce, "Hey, we're doing universal apps and Xbox is going to be part of it." Of course.

Leo: Well, so now —

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: One guy — one man to rule them all.

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Paul: Yeah. And this time it's a good guy.

Leo and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: So okay, good.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: This is — but again, this is Nadella putting his stamp on the company.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Leo: Not unexpectedly.

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: Right, right. And it's funny how this cascades down because you see the right people in charge of the right parts of Microsoft.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And I don't mean to say "for a change."

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: I mean, in some cases, obviously, some of the people they had — many of the people they had in positions of power were fantastic.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: But we had a couple problems over the past couple years, and it seems like those have been nicely eradicated. And in a — what do you call it? A pogrom? A —

Leo: Pogrom, yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: Wow. (Laughs)

Leo: They'll all be getting chicken farms in Petaluma now.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: But you know what else was cool — and you really felt this at Build — was —

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Engineers are back running the company again.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yep.

Mary Jo: And it was not Scott Gu, but Nadella, too. He's an engineer. And it just — Terry Myerson, engineer, right?

Daniel: Joe Belfiore.

Mary Jo: Joe Belfiore. So it felt, to developers, I think, like, "Wow. They're — we're one of them; they're one of us"; instead of, "It's the suits and us." Right?

Daniel: Right.

Paul: Right.

Leo: And a customer focus that's new.

Mary Jo: Yep. That's good.

Paul: Which is so stupid. I mean, it's like —

Mary Jo: I mean, they've been —

Daniel: They haven't quite figured it out.

Paul: "We have a company, and our new thing is we're going to listen to customers."

Mary Jo: No, I think they've been focused on customers —

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: — but not — but the bottom line was, "Is this making us money or not?" And it doesn't matter, really, other than that.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: Well, everything is a — it's always Apple's fault. And I mean this in a good way. I mean, Apple —

Leo: This one is Apple's fault.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Well, they've been very successful at their model.

Paul: That's what I said. Windows 8 is Apple's fault.

Daniel: Everybody sees that and wants them to emulate that.

Mary Jo: They want to be that.

Paul: Right.

Daniel: And so does —

Leo: Not just Apple. Amazon. Look at Amazon.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: I think it is modern.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: It's the new way of companies who say —

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: "We're not going to sacrifice customer experience for bottom line."

Daniel: Right.

Paul: And to give Microsoft —

Leo: "Bottom line will get there if we focus on customer experience."

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Give them a little credit. You know, this is the company that could have been very successful for a very long time doing the kind of Ballmer spreadsheet thing.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: And they would have become the next IBM —

Daniel: IBM, right, yeah.

Paul: — very easily. And they would have been very successful, and we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it because that is terribly boring.

Daniel: Well, it's like — I mean —

Mary Jo: I would have been. I would have been here talking about it. (Laughs)

Daniel and Paul: (Laugh)

Daniel: The enterprise.

Paul: I'd be playing Xbox.

Daniel: Well — (Laughs)

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: But should Microsoft sell off the Xbox thing?

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Because a lot of people — you're —

Paul: I am — yeah. I am —

Mary Jo: You're in favor?

Leo: Xbox selloff?

Paul: I don't think it's core to what they're doing.

Leo: Yeah, maybe not.

Daniel: Really? But it's, like, so key to their consumer stuff.

Paul: I — so —

Mary Jo: Really?

Paul: Really? (Laughs)

Daniel: Well, they're in 80 million living rooms.

Paul: I mean, it's —

Daniel: 80 million living rooms.

Paul: Yeah. I hear you.

Daniel: It's the only successful —

Paul: The problem is, they're in the living room with a $500 box that competes with $99 boxes. You know?

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: They need a $99 box. And the Xbox UI on a $99 box would be hands-down —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Is it doable?

Paul: I guess we're going to find out. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: Did you hear everybody got an Xbox?

Leo: EVERYBODY got an — did you all get an Xbox? Son of a gun!

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: A 360 or a —

Paul: (Laughs) Yeah.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: It was the old white one.

Daniel: The white one, yeah.

Leo: (Laughs)

Paul: It says, like, "Refurbished."

All: (Laugh)

Paul: It will — this will be fine for 17 or 18 days.

Leo: That's actually a great — that's a great gift.

Mary Jo: That was a great giveaway.

Leo: That's a good giveaway, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: Although we have to —

Paul: Just what I needed was a third Xbox 1.

Daniel: Yeah. Right?

Mary Jo: Yeah, they actually gave them to press who could take them, too.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Well —

Mary Jo: So everybody said, "Mary Jo, do you have an Xbox now?" No, I couldn't take it. (Laughs)

Paul: I gave mine to a homeless guy on the corner of Mission and 4th. (Laughs)

Mary Jo: I saw you do that. (Laughs)

Daniel: I was walking around the streets last night about two A.M. with one.

Mary Jo: You were?

Daniel: A little tipsy, yeah. I was surprised I still have it.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: The homeless guy said —

Paul: He slept under it.

Leo: — "I hear it's always on. The camera's watching me. I think I can keep it."

Daniel: Well, now I wonder, did they — did they plan to really give out the Xbox 1, or was that a last-minute thing?

Leo: Did they plan on doing it?

Paul: No, the giveaways were going to be very different, and they were —

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: What?

Mary Jo: They were?

Paul: Actually, we can talk about that now. Yeah, because —

Mary Jo: What were they going to be?

Paul: Well —

Daniel: The Lumia 630?

Mary Jo: Oh.

Paul: Yeah, the — right. And — right.

Daniel: And the 930, too, I heard.

Paul: Yeah, that's right.

Mary Jo: Oh, really?

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: But they weren't ready.

Daniel: Yeah, they weren't ready. Yeah.

Paul: So — I'm not sure — you know, I think the way to say it is, they wanted to wait for the release of the final version of that software —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Before people wrote reviews and things.

Daniel: Right.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: That's fair.

Paul: And what they didn't want was a bunch of knee-jerk —

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: That's fair.

Paul: — day one, you know, tweets and —

Leo: So you'll get it in the mail later.

Paul: What?

Leo: And they'll want the Xbox back.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Well, what — they did that give that $500 gift certificate —

Mary Jo: Yeah. $500 gift card.

Leo: Oh, wow.

Mary Jo: In addition to the Xbox.

Leo: So you can buy it.

Paul: And I think that was the payoff. It was like —

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: "Look, keep your phones; we'll" —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Although it felt kind of funny. It felt like at Christmastime when you forgot to get someone that gift, and you're like, "Oh, gift card! Here you go."

Leo: Yeah. "Here's some socks with a gift card in it!"

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: I've never seen a $500 gift card to the Microsoft store. Why —

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: It's usually 15 or 25.

Leo: I — I want to explore this 'sell Xbox.' It's kind of an interesting idea.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Well, check Ebay because there's going to be a bunch of them on there today.

Leo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Leo: It isn't — it isn't core to their business.

Paul: Oh, that's — I'm sorry; you meant —

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Leo: Not — it's — not an individual Xbox, the entire division.

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: They're not going to — it's like a 'buy it now' price for the Xbox division —

Leo: Yeah, buy it now. (Laughs)

Paul: — $4.9 billion.

Leo: Yeah, it's yours. Take it home today.

Paul: I misunderstood.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah. But when you say you think they're going to sell it, you mean spin it off into a separate company.

Paul: Yes, of which —

Mary Jo: You don't mean sell it to Sony.

Paul: Oh, no, no, no.

Mary Jo: No. (Laughs)

Paul: — of which they would still own, you know, 51 percent or something.

Mary Jo: Right, right.

Paul: Of course, yeah.

Leo: Ah, interesting.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: But yeah, I guess it's weird, though, because isn't, like, so much of the Xbox 1's core OS tied to Microsoft?

Paul: Isn't most of the core OS that goes into the Nokia Lumia — oh, wait, they do own Nokia.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) Yeah.

Leo: Yeah, but that's — you know, they could — they could become an OEM for Microsoft operating systems.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I — Dell sells PCs. I mean, they don't — you know —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I mean, there's a model there.

Mary Jo: I haven't heard anybody like Nadella telegraphing they're going to sell Xbox.

Paul: No, no.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Only Elop did that.

Daniel: Right.

Mary Jo: Only Elop did that.

Daniel: Right, but —

Mary Jo: And he's not the CEO.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: And of course, a big story — Microsoft buys Xamarin. No.

Mary Jo: No.

Daniel: That didn't happen.

Mary Jo: Didn't happen.

Leo: Didn't happen.

Paul: Yeah, we've heard mixed things on that.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: They were holding hands backstage. I saw it.

Mary Jo: They were.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: We had some Xamarin developers here the other day, and they said —

Mary Jo: Were they here?

Leo: Oh, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yay?

Leo: — and they said, "Well, we're not sure we like that idea so much."

Paul: Right. Sure.

Leo: Like to keep an independent Xamarin.

Mary Jo: We had Miguel at the Blogger Bash last night.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: What did he say?

Paul: He was very coy.

Mary Jo: We tried to — we tried to get him to say something. Paul held him down, I poured beer into his mouth — (Laughs)

Leo: If he's not saying anything, it means it's still in play, right?

Paul: Well, okay, but that's also what happened last year.

Leo: Oh.

Paul: And I -

Mary Jo: No luck.

Paul: Yeah, he wouldn't say anything.

Mary Jo: No, he would not say. But I said to him, "Would you want to work for a big company like Microsoft?" And he said, "I used to work for Nouvelle."

Paul: Right.

Leo: Right.

Mary Jo: I'm like, "Oh, yeah."

Daniel: Oh, wow.

Paul: And he did for, like —

Leo: That was your point. Exactly.

Paul: — seven years or so.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: But I don't know; I just can't see it. I can't.

Paul: I could see it.

Mary Jo: You can?

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: (Skeptical noise) I don't know.

Paul: I mean, obviously, some people would be unhappy with that —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: I mean, it would be great for Microsoft to buy them.

Paul: See, the reason they might do it is if you want to do cross-platform dev through Visual Studio — which is not how Xamarin works today; am I right? Is that right? You can do it; you don't have to.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Okay. So — I mean, that's what you would want. So we're talking about universal apps. I mean, you want to have solutions where you can target iOS or Android —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: — and share code, obviously.

Mary Jo: Yeah. But they did make a very, very interesting announcement with Xamarin. Did you hear about the .net Foundation, Leo?

Leo: No. What's that?

Paul: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: So Microsoft and Xamarin are creating this foundation where a lot of pieces of .net are being open-sourced.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Not kidding.

Leo: Wow.

Mary Jo: .net is being open-sourced.

Paul: Well, so — the weird — it was weird how they announced this because the first announcement was about Roslyn —

Mary Jo: It was.

Paul: — which is a .net compiler.

Mary Jo: Compiler, a service, yeah.

Paul: Right, a cloud-based compiler.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: So they open-sourced that.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: And I thought, Well, you know, this is a cloud project; that makes some sense.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And this is kind of a limited type of deal.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Who would want to use this?

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: And then, they said, "Well, and actually, now we're going to open-source the rest of .net. I was like —

Mary Jo: Not all of .net.

Paul: Not all of it, but a lot of it.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: I mean, big chunks of it, yep.

Mary Jo: Right. So that was pretty interesting. And I talked to Miguel a little bit about that, and I said, "Wow, you must be excited about that." And he's like, "We can't believe they did it."

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: And he's like, "We've been wanting this for so long."

Paul: Right, right.

Leo: Well, and hasn't Xamarin been putting stuff in the open — in open-source as well? Some .net code of its own?

Mary Jo: Yeah. They're stuff's all —

Paul: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Leo: So it's coming from both sides now.

Mary Jo: Right, right. And they also said —

Leo: Is there overlap?

Mary Jo: No, because Xamarin's putting its own stuff in, and Microsoft put in things like — well, they've already put in things like asp.net.

Paul: Now, right. This is the idea. It's not —

Leo: More proprietary stuff.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Some more proprietary stuff and also documentation is going in there, too. So Xamarin really wanted some of the documentation around base-class libraries to be given them, and Microsoft actually — yesterday at four o'clock '- said, "Here you go."

Paul: Right.

Mary Jo: So that's a really big deal.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Mary Jo: And it's another one of these things, just like give away the hardware for free. Okay, now they're  open-sourcing .net, the crown jewels, right?

Paul: Imagine how different .net as a platform might have gone a decade ago.

Mary Jo: I know. If it was open-source.

Paul: If they had open-sourced.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Although, you know what? When they announced it yesterday, I was waiting to see if the audience was going to be happy or not.

Paul: Or groan, right.

Mary Jo: Right. Because in the past, it felt like —

Paul: You know what?

Mary Jo: — anything Microsoft open-sourced was like, "Oh, we don't really care about this that much." (Laughs)

Paul: This audience wants their stuff as broadly out there as possible.

Mary Jo: Now it's different. It feels really different.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: And it's not like when they kind of turned IronPython over to the community. It doesn't feel like that.

Paul: No. It's only a matter of time before Microsoft's CEO gets up onstage and says, "You know, we don't — for us to win, Apple doesn't have to lose."

Leo: Wow.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: You know, I mean, it is kind of that —

Leo: Wow.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: It's almost that point.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: They did kind of — the other shoe dropped on touchless — touch first versions of Office, right?

Paul: Office, yeah.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: Sort of.

Leo: Talked a little bit about the Windows side.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: They even demoed a little bit of it.

Mary Jo: Yeah, PowerPoint.

Paul: Yep.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: In the keynote.

Mary Jo: Yep. Gemini — the things we've been calling Gemini — they showed the PowerPoint app again, which is the touch first, totally redone version of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, that they're going to be coming out with. But still no date.

Daniel: No.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Still no beta.

Paul: No beta.

Daniel: And they didn't show Word. I wanted to see what Word was going to be.

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: Well, I guess — was it you who said they always leave a PowerPoint?

Mary Jo: Yeah. They always show PowerPoint.

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Why?

Paul: Because it's so colorful and —

Mary Jo: It is.

Leo: Oh, it's pretty.

Mary Jo: Like, are you going to show Excel?

Daniel: The animations were pretty awesome.

Mary Jo: I mean —

Paul: Like, here's a bunch of text. Look, it scrolls.

Daniel: Yeah. (Laughs)

Leo: Yeah, it's hard.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: It's hard to get excited about that. You're right.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah. But I thought they might at least say, "And you're going to get a beta here."

Paul: Yep.

Mary Jo: Or in a month or whenever.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: But no. No.

Paul: It's clearly further along.

Mary Jo: It is. It's further along.

Paul: And —

Mary Jo: And they said they're going to build this for Android also.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Mary Jo: There's going to be a touch first version of Word, Excel, and PowerPoint for Android.

Paul: Yeah. And there's — it's a universal app, so this will run on a phone.

Leo: Well, there is — something did come out for Android.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Leo: It was a single app.

Mary Jo: The phones. The phones.

Paul: No, no, just for the phones.

Leo: Just for the — oh, not for tablets.

Mary Jo: Yeah. Right.

Paul: So in other words, the Office you see for iPad will probably be the Android version. Probably be the same thing.

Mary Jo: Right. Very similar, yeah.

Daniel: Which is actually really nice.

Mary Jo: It looked nice.

Paul: It's beautiful.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah. It —

Paul: But if you do a side-by-side comparison of what they showed here with the iPad version, what you see is that the Windows version has more ribbons; it has more —

Leo: It's more Windows-y.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: There's more there. It's more — yeah.

Mary Jo: Right. More features.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: So more is always better, as you know. And so —

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Clearly.

Mary Jo: But not too much. (Laughs)

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: Any — before we wrap up —

Paul: Yeah.

Leo: — the rundown, what else?

Paul: So we — you know, we didn't talk about the biggest and strangest announcement, which was Windows for the Internet of Things.

Daniel: Right, right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Which was so ill-defined.

Mary Jo: Yeah, nobody knows.

Paul: It actually goes back to my Windows RT question.

Leo: That's not the same as embedded Windows?

Paul: I —

Mary Jo: That's what we were wondering. (Laughs)

Paul: Nobody knows.

Daniel: Yeah, it's like a next generation of it.

Paul: The only thing we learned about it is that it will be free. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yep.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: Because the screens are smaller than 9 inches.

Paul: I — it will work — the picture graph they had showed a watch, a gas pump —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: You know, like a kiosk —

Mary Jo: Well, the things they use Embedded for now.

Paul: Yeah, I mean —

Leo: People made a big deal about the fact that they were showing a picture of a watch, though.

Paul: Of course. Of course.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: It's like, "Oh, they've got a watch!"

Mary Jo: Well, remember, some people thought, at the Nokia event there, they were going to announce a watch.

Daniel: Right, yeah. Watch.

Mary Jo: And they didn't.

Paul: Right, right.

Daniel: That was going to happen. Yeah.

Leo: But wearables —

Paul: No, the only thing new that they're going to sell is themselves. (Laughs)

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I think they're — yeah.

Daniel: Wearables are coming, right?

Mary Jo: They are.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: This fall, I think, is when —

Leo: Microsoft's got to be careful because they were in this market a lot.

Mary Jo: Before.

Daniel: Right, the SPOT watch, yeah.

Leo: And it was a bomb.

Mary Jo: Right.

Leo: And —

Paul: Sure. I wonder if there's anyone left that worked on that stuff.

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Oh, right.

Mary Jo: Well, the .net micro-framework guys, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Who — and that was another piece they open-sourced this week, so —

Paul: Well, I mean — you know, those kind of guys that they carted out to talk about the watch, those kind of trendy guys, you know, that —

Mary Jo: Oh, yeah.

Paul: — would deal with, like, "Swatch" and —

Mary Jo: Right, right.

Paul: — those big —

Leo: I think Joe could do that.

Mary Jo: Joe could do it.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Leo: He's that kind of guy.

Mary Jo: Well, the guy supposedly spearheading the wearables is Alex Kipman, who did Connect.

Daniel: Oh, okay. That could be interesting.

Paul: Okay. Interesting.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: So he's used to kind of alternative computing type things, yeah.

Mary Jo: Yes, reality.

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Daniel: Right.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: What else? I feel like we — are we missing anything?

Mary Jo: Well, we didn't talk about Windows. (Laughs)

Daniel: You didn't mention —

Paul: Right, right.

Daniel: Well, what they didn't —

Leo: It's free!

Mary Jo: We didn't talk about Windows' future.

Paul: Well —

Daniel: And they didn't mention Surface.

Paul: Oh, yes.

Leo: They talked about update 1.

Mary Jo: They didn't mention Surface.

Leo: They did show update 1.

Mary Jo: They gave us update 1.

Leo: They call it update.

Daniel: Yeah, they call it update.

Paul: We should — it's just update. I —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: I talked to them about that. I said, "I have places where you've called this 'spring update'" —

Leo: You know —

Paul: "'update 1'" —

Leo: — in 1914, they didn't call it World War I.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: Right, right.

Leo: Because they didn't know there'd be another one.

Paul: But this time, they know there's going to be —

Leo: This time they know. Okay.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Paul: And there's also a precedence here because these are the — the updates used to be called "general distribution release 1, 2, 3, etc."

Mary Jo: Right. Yeah.

Paul: They decided this name was not friendly, so they call them "Update 1, update 2, update 3," like Windows Phone.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Now it's just update.

Paul: No. It literally is update 1.

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: Oh, it is?

Paul: It's — yes. But they don't call it that publicly because —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — they don't — they want to set expectations in the sense that they don't want to promise — when you say 1 —

Daniel: Update 2.

Mary Jo: It means there's a 2 and a 3.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: But see, I —

Leo: And in the real world, we, as geeks, love the idea of an update.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: In the real world, an update may not be perceived as a positive.

Paul: But —

Leo: It might be an admission that something's broken.

Mary Jo: Yeah. Right.

Paul: Also, when you just say "update" — so this is it for Windows 8.1, then.

Leo: Yeah.

Paul: That's what that sounds like to me.

Mary Jo: Maybe, maybe not.

Paul: Well, that's what I'm saying.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: It's — it's vague.

Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Leo: I think they don't want to say, "Hey, there's so much wrong with Windows 8.1, we're going to be doing many updates. Here's the first."

Mary Jo: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Well, they should say that —

Leo: Don't you think?

Paul: — because that's actually what's happening.

Mary Jo: Kind of.

Leo: (Laughs)

Paul: But — (Laughs)

Leo: So —

Paul: But no, actually, Windows 8.1 is pretty good. I —

Mary Jo: Windows 8.1 is great. I love it.

Paul: It's in good shape, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I love it. It's —

Paul: And with Update, it's —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: I even wrote an article this week saying, if this had been what Windows 8 was when it came out —

Paul: Right.

Leo: You would have liked it.

Daniel: Sure.

Mary Jo: I would have actually not been afraid to put it on my PC.

Paul: And it's — you know, Mary Jo and I only talk about Windows, as you might imagine. And on the drive up here —

Daniel: (Laughs)

Mary Jo: All we talked about was Windows. (Laughs)

Paul: (Laughs) It's sad, actually. But we —

Leo: Is it really? That's terrible.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Paul: No, no.

Mary Jo: No, we talked about sushi. (Laughs)

Paul: But —

Leo: Good.

Paul: No. But, for whatever reason, we were talking about the —

Daniel: Is that a new code name? (Laughs)

Leo: Did you like Hiros?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Windows — yeah, Windows update Sushi.

Daniel: (Laughs)

Leo: What'd you have?

Mary Jo: We had — I had sashimi.

Leo: Yeah.

Paul: All right, you're getting off track, Leo.

Leo: They have good —

Paul, Daniel, and Mary Jo: (Laugh)

Paul: No, but we were talking about this, and this kind of notion about just how different this is now.

Mary Jo: I know. It's so different.

Paul: And how this can change, that they're trying not to set too many expectations; but the truth is, there are going to be more updates.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Of course.

Paul: And even on — you know, in another two-sentence parsing that we have to go through —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: — he said that — he being Terry Myerson — said that Microsoft would deliver the floating windows.

Daniel: Right.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: Floating modern app windows.

Daniel: And that new start —

Paul: And also the new start menu.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: In a coming update to Windows 8.1. Which —

Daniel: Which I get the feeling they did that the night before. (Laughs) They just, like, drew it out.

Paul: Well, no, I — so I asked — I asked Joe Belfiore, I asked Terry Myerson, I asked Frank Shaw, the same question; and they all said the same thing. Which was, "That was deliberately vague, right?" And they're like, "Yup." (Laughs)

Mary Jo and Daniel: (Laugh)

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And that was the point.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: And it was —

Leo: But it is part of update 1.

Daniel: No.

Mary Jo: No.

Paul: No.

Leo: It's not?

Mary Jo: Those things are not.

Paul: No, this is something — this is something coming later.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right. And so — but — so what —

Leo: Ah. I thought —

Mary Jo: What's interesting — yeah?

Leo: Am I misunderstanding? I thought it was going to be part of update 1.

Mary Jo and Paul: No.

Daniel: Nope.

Paul: No, I —

Leo: It wasn't.

Paul: I'd actually written last year.

Leo: I misunderstood.

Paul: That coming — it was threshold.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Threshold being the —

Mary Jo: Threshold, we think, is Windows 9.

Leo: Aaaaaahhh.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Right. Which is —

Paul: What we think is going to be called Windows 9.

Mary Jo: — we think is spring 2015.

Paul: Right, April 2015, yep.

Leo: Oh, right.

Mary Jo: Yep. But then, the way they worded this this week, we're kind of wondering, is it maybe going to show up earlier? Like, things like the start menu shows up —

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: — in update 2, maybe.

Paul: Well, yeah. So in —

Leo: Well, didn't they say it would come to all Windows 8.1 users? Did they not say that?

Mary Jo: Yeah. Windows 8 —

Paul: That's the point. In an update to Windows 8.1.

Mary Jo: Yeah. So that could be —

Paul: So — and by the way, Windows 9 would be an update to Windows 8.1.

Mary Jo: Yeah, that would be, too.

Leo: Oh, okay. All right. I get it.

Mary Jo: Yep. So they hedged it, so we don't know.

Daniel: Maybe — I don't know if they just don't know. (Laughs) Like —

Paul: Well, no, of course —

Mary Jo: That's what somebody said to me. They don't know.

Paul: I think that's fair. They don't know.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Leo: Or they know and they don't — or they kind of know, but they don't want to commit.

Paul: Well, no. I mean —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Even the naming stuff, like GDRs, right?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Part of Windows Phone, and then came — at some point, GDR 2 became update 2 and then update 3.

Paul: Yeah. Right.

Daniel: And so they're —

Paul: It's a semantics thing.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: But it's also a delivery time thing. One of the last — actually, the beginning of the end for Sinofsky wasn't necessarily Windows 8 and what it was; it was his declaration that three years is a good time frame for a new version  of Windows.

Daniel: Right.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: With Windows 8.1, they showed us kind of what they could deliver in one year. With update 1, they've showed us what they can deliver in four months.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: And I joked with a number of people about this. You know, so are you going to have another Build conference next week so we can do update 2?

Daniel and Mary Jo: (Laughs)

Daniel: Right.

Paul: What — is this like an exponentially faster thing every time? But you know, Terry Myerson said, "No, we like this schedule."

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: "We want to be fast."

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: And I think what they might do — I think they don't know, like you said.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: But what they might want to do is deliver that stuff as quickly as they can. Not tie it to a big bang release —

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: — but maybe update it whenever they can.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: And maybe that comes in the fall. Maybe —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: And I'm just speculating. But maybe there's an update 2 that comes out that has the floating windows only.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: And an update 3 that has the start menu, or vice versa, or whatever.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Paul: I mean, maybe — if there's a  way to shoehorn that in —

Mary Jo: Why not?

Paul: Right. Why not do it?

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: There's certainly a lot more dynamic — and especially listening to criticism — now.

Mary Jo: Right.

Paul: Yeah.

Daniel: Like, the update 1 stuff, I think, is real interesting, the way they're blending —

Mary Jo: Yeah, me, too.

Daniel: — the more desktop controls. When I use a desktop with the mouse, I'm actually — I actually like the little minimize —

Mary Jo: I love it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Mary Jo: It's so great.

Paul: Yeah.

Mary Jo: It's like you can shut an app like you're supposed to. (Laughs)

Daniel: Yeah.

Leo: (Laughs)

Daniel: It's a good break. I mean, they basically went too far with Windows 8.

Mary Jo: Yeah, they did.

Paul: And they were ahead of their time.

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: And so now they're backtracking. It looks bad publicly —

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: — but from a user perspective, it's — it feels more comforting.

Mary Jo: It does.

Daniel: So I think it'll be a good thing.

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: There is that weirdness in update 1 where you can launch mobile apps from the taskbar on the desktop.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: They launch full-screen.

Mary Jo: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: So they give you that title bar, like you were saying, with the controls —

Mary Jo: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: — you can see the start menu —

Mary Jo: Yep.

Paul: Or — I'm sorry, the taskbar in there if you want to. But the next step is obviously, let's get it in a window.

Daniel: Right.

Paul: And I think it's — I think it was smart of them to reveal that they are doing that.

Mary Jo: Me, too.

Paul: Because this gives people hope —

Daniel: Right.

Paul: — and it prevents them from waiting.

Daniel: Yeah.

Paul: You know, "I'm not going to buy Windows or upgrade until they get it right."

Mary Jo: Exactly.

Paul: But now they know this is coming as an update.

Mary Jo: Right. And this is all for business users, right?